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Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

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Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#51

Post by open-source-ux »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #7

Safe nuclear power needs German engineering.

"Safe nuclear power needs German engineering"

France and Germany jointly developed the European Pressurised Reactor (EBR). In France, development was led by Framatome and EDF, and in Germany by Siemens.

There are currently 3 nuclear plants under construction (or almost ready for operation) using EBR in Europe - they are in France, Finland and the UK.

Unfortunately, all three plants are over-budget and over-schedule.

The UK plant (Hinkley Point C) is expected to provide 7% of the UK's electricity when it is operational in 2026. It is designed to run for at least 60 years. (Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-58724732)

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#52

Post by legulere »

rob_c wrote: post #2

Wish it was invest and expand and not please don't decommission. It's a win, win, win when played right...

That would be unwise though, considering that building nuclear power plants is slower and more expensive than wind and solar in Europe.

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#53

Post by johnchristopher »

xg15 wrote: post #31
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a US expat living in Germany, and boy is the anti-nuclear sentiment real here Is it the usual talking points on both sides? Or is there a Teutonic shade to the debate that doesn't surface in e.g. America?

German here. I can't really compare the viewpoints, but historically, the anti-nuclear movement has been an integral part of the german civil rights movement in the 60s and 70s. [1] I believe there have been two key events which have influenced this: - Chernobyl. Being in close proximity, the event had a far stronger impact than in the US: There was widespread contamination from fallout drifting over from Ukraine and…

Hi, what's the general population's stance on Belgian nuclear plants ?

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#54

Post by goodpoint »

tscherno wrote: post #30
junon wrote: post #3

I'm a US expat living in Germany, and boy is the anti-nuclear sentiment real here. There have even been fights - physical altercations - between Green Party members at rallies for having differing viewpoints about nuclear. Unfortunately, it seems those who are against are working with very outdated information and 'tropes' w.r.t. nuclear safety and whatnot. Quite unfortunate.

Nuclear was also promoted as save decades before Chernobyl and Fukushima by the lobbies. So is there a guarantee that it is safe this time around?

It's not just a matter of safety of the plans themselves.

You need safety against external threats e.g. a nuclear plant can be targeted during war or by terrorists

You need safety around illegal dumping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_waste#Illegal_dump...

Also, extremely centralized energy production creates political risks (coups, corruption, hiding mismanagement)

Nuclear proliferation risk.

Investment risk: solar keeps getting cheaper and nuclear has very long ROI that might grow indefinitely

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#55

Post by initplus »

Gwypaas wrote: post #48
fsflover wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is statistically safer than almost anything even if you take Chernobyl and Fukushima into account.

Is that why it is impossible to insure a nuclear power plant on the private market?

If fossil fuel power plants were legally responsible for harm caused by their carbon emissions, they would also be impossible to insure.

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#56

Post by CyanBird »

outworlder wrote: post #34
CyanBird wrote: post #15

Biggest issue with older nuclear plants is the material degradation as a consequence of radiation, after a some decades of constant irradiation steel can become as brittle as glass, which is not only not reversible, but it also means that the actual rebar and concrete surrounding the core becomes damaged and the only way to replace that is to rebuild the whole core I am rather against setting up new reactors, given t…

> the more safe you try to make them, the slower to build and more expensive they will end up being That doesn't follow. We have countless examples across multiple industries on technologies that became cheaper and safer at the same time. If you try to make the old designs safe (created for weapons manufacturing first and energy production second), then sure. However, there are newer designs that are cheaper to build…

> That doesn't follow. We have countless examples across multiple industries on technologies that became cheaper and safer at the same time.

Well, that is because nuclear energy is unlike "multiple technologies and industries", it is a highly politiced industry which when it has failed, it has done so spectacularly and at high localized costs

All the updates and changes after high profile accidents such as Fukushima are highly expensive same with review of being built and existing reactors which bloat budgets and schedules, this is precisely one of the big issues Westinghouse and Toshiba had post fukushima

Currently on a bus, so I can only answer to the initial excerpt, when I get home I'll see if I can answer the rest

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#57

Post by germandiago »

fsflover wrote: post #33
tscherno wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear was also promoted as save decades before Chernobyl and Fukushima by the lobbies. So is there a guarantee that it is safe this time around?

It is statistically safer than almost anything even if you take Chernobyl and Fukushima into account.

Nuclear energy fear reminds me of people that are afraid of planes.

It is like if there is a crash it is going to be very bad. But it is also true that your chances to have a crash in a car is just higher.

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#58

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

Factorium wrote: post #36
deepsun wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how much of that is supported by Russian govt, because Germany is one of the largest customer for their oil and gas.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41447603 Former Chancellor Gerhard Schroder oversaw the shutdown of Germany's nukes. Now he's on the board of Rosneft, a giant fossil fuel company controlled by the Russian Government.

Ha, and people keep saying there's no corruption in Germany.

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#59

Post by schleck8 »

It's worth noting that nuclear is really expensive when factoring in insurance and disposable, a lot more so than wind and solar.

>The cost of generating solar power ranges from $36 to $44 per megawatt hour (MWh), the WNISR said, while onshore wind power comes in at $29–$56 per MWh. Nuclear energy costs between $112 and $189.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-energy-nuclearpower/nucle...

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#60

Post by unchocked »

tscherno wrote: post #30
junon wrote: post #3

I'm a US expat living in Germany, and boy is the anti-nuclear sentiment real here. There have even been fights - physical altercations - between Green Party members at rallies for having differing viewpoints about nuclear. Unfortunately, it seems those who are against are working with very outdated information and 'tropes' w.r.t. nuclear safety and whatnot. Quite unfortunate.

Nuclear was also promoted as save decades before Chernobyl and Fukushima by the lobbies. So is there a guarantee that it is safe this time around?

There are no guarantees. You need to compare vs. the safety of burning coal, for the climate and for human health. You need to compare it with how sure you are that renewables & storage will satisfy our energy needs tomorrow, or the safety of not having enough energy to go around.

That said, nuclear is pretty safe. I would live next door to a nuclear power plant, and if I did I would be likelier to die slipping in the shower.

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