Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths • Hacker News Board

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#741

Post by motohagiography » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 12:45 PM UTC

notacoward wrote: post #598

motohagiography wrote: post #337

Kind words, but possibly too late, and they won't change anyones mind. Authorities have forfeited public trust by co-ordinating to decieve people, censor them, and then reward others who publicly expressed their contempt for their fellow citizens, just to maintain the leverage. I do not see the path to reconciliation yet. Destroying millions of businesses and then doubling down by attacking guarantees of freedoms (sp…

> impostor syndromes, anxiety, depression, and self loathing Those insults could equally well be slung at either side, and it would be just as much part of the problem.

So it's not misinterpreted, these are not insults, these are issues the people I know manage which are the effect of over exercised neuroticism in their personalities, a trait I personally leverage to do things like write, code, make music, be funny, creative, etc. see: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5428182/

When it becomes overemphasized, you get the issues I mentioned above.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#742

Post by lordloki » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 12:52 PM UTC

larkost wrote: post #201

zionic wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They put politics and driving wedges between people to further entrench their positions The current vice president of the united states when on tv in 2020 telling the world she wouldn't take "trumps rushed vaccine".

This is a complete mischaracterization, and bordering on a lie at this point. She was very specific about not taking it because President Trump said so (rightly, given Trump's history of promoting improving treatments). But you don't have to take my work for it, read her's: "If Dr. Fauci, the doctors, tell us that we should take it, I'll be the first in line to take it. But if Donald Trump tells us we should take it,…

Why would she say anything at all then? It would be impossible for Trump alone to authorize and recommend the vaccines. To many Democrats at the time this statement sowed doubts about the vaccines. My parents said they wouldn't get "Trump's vaccine". What you are failing to acknowledge is that how you understand the statement is not how everyone would interpret it, and many interpreted it as being against the vaccines because Trump was "rushing" them.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#743

Post by mike00632 » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 12:59 PM UTC

Natsu wrote: post #313

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion the biggest example of this was the poor mask guidance early on in the pandemic that was subsequently reversed. Zeynep Tufekci had a very good piece in the NYT on this: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-... The real fear was that there would be a run on masks by the public, making them unavailable for hospital use. Also, at the time, there wasn't clear evidence of the effective…

This matches a lot of my own experience in trying to convince people to take reasonable precautions and get vaccinated. And I was one of the first in line for my age group in my state. You have to do things to build trust first, and you have to be willing to admit that some of the measures taken are farcical and have no basis in science. People will listen to a reasonable, nuanced discussion. They won't listen to som…

You should really cite something to back up your claim that non-N95 masks don't help.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#744

Post by mike00632 » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 1:05 PM UTC

clairity wrote: post #648

Natsu wrote: post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ~95% of those 65 and older in the US are vaccinated My grandmother can't vaccinate for medical reasons and I have other specific health reasons, including past issues with the flu, breathing troubles, general poor health, and the fact that she's 100, all give me reason to believe that she has special risk factors. The place she is at has had Covid deaths and there are others of similar age with similar risk profile…

this isn't about your grandma (may she live many more years), but the sanctimoniousness (and misguidedness) of your comments. your chance of death from covid is likely (much) less than 0.2%, an average that's disproportionately (and unfortunately) inflated by the elderly and unhealthy. the elderly and unhealthy are the folks who we should encourage (but not force) to get vaccinated because of the elevated risk. every…

It's crazy how you brush aside the elderly and "unhealthy" as people who can die without your consideration and you think their deaths only 'mess up' the numbers. They are treated like an undesirable population whose deaths shouldn't be taken into account.

Shouldn't we vaccinate, wear masks and social distance if only to help the elderly and "unhealthy"?

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#745

Post by salawat » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 1:05 PM UTC

nuerow wrote: post #729

roenxi wrote: post #715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your argument is actually not about freedom at all, but about exceptionalism, entitlements, and excluding yourself from any responsibility or duty towards ensuring that the priviledges you enjoy are also made available to others. The technical term I prefer is "basic human rights". Like right to work, right to freedom of movement, right to associate, etc, etc. That might be a bit entitled I suppose.

> The technical term I prefer is "basic human rights". If that's what you're going with, please keep in mind that basic human rights include right to health, and your refusal to comply with basic health and safety precautions violates "basic human rights" of everyone around you. So, your argument isn't really about "freedom" but this false sense of entitlement where no rules or obligations should apply to you while t…

Right to health is not guaranteed. Nor is safety! They get pumped into pursuit of happiness, but again, you'd better have some good legs, or a hell of a wheelchair.

Modern civilization and freedom may come with some obligations and strings attached, but at no point do those justify anyone else as a matter of normalcy, forcing medical intervention or procedures on you unwillingly. We all hope everyone has the good sense to come around eventually; but forced medical procedures is not it. Down that road lay too much atrocity fodder.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#746

Post by dgfitz » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 1:06 PM UTC

betterunix2 wrote: post #548

dgfitz wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean propaganda? Trump was a fool and a shit president, and Bidens ratings are rapidly trying to reach Trumps. They both suck. Congress is a fucking joke. I'll gladly accept your insult about not knowing anything about politics, wrong as it is. I choose not to insult you back.

You may not approve of Biden's job so far, but Trump's presidency was on an entirely different level of bad. Trump's failure to fully divest himself of his business interests left doubts about the intention of every decision he made. Trump's administration was filled with criminals. Trump managed to drag white nationalism from the fringes of society into the Republican mainstream and even had white nationalists and t…

> You may not approve of Biden's job so far

I don't. I was hopeful back in January, but as of now no I don't.

I don't disagree with anything you said about Trump. he was/is a jackass and a shitty person, and is in the argument for worst president in US history, if there is even an argument to make.

I don't want to debate why Biden is better than Trump from a wholistic perspective, because I agree that he is. I do not agree that he is doing a good job.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#747

Post by mike00632 » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 1:09 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #732

nuerow wrote: post #729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The technical term I prefer is "basic human rights". If that's what you're going with, please keep in mind that basic human rights include right to health, and your refusal to comply with basic health and safety precautions violates "basic human rights" of everyone around you. So, your argument isn't really about "freedom" but this false sense of entitlement where no rules or obligations should apply to you while t…

> your refusal to comply with basic health and safety precautions violates "basic human rights" of everyone around you... 1. I mean, I'm vaccinated. So pardon me for not taking that outburst seriously. 2. That is a stupid argument. We haven't managed to eradicate the flu, I caught it the other year. So it isn't obvious how someone being unvaccinated can expose you to extra risk - COVID is still going to be around and…

But we have managed to eradicate smallpox, thanks to widespread vaccination campaigns. Not to mention that the flu vaccine saves many lives each year, which is why it's mandated in many areas of life. Perhaps you should dial back the anti-vax sentiments.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#748

Post by Izkata » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 1:16 PM UTC

themaninthedark wrote: post #372

takeda wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At that point no businesses US were closed because of covid, but Chinese businesses were unproportionally hurt because president called covid a "china virus". You're trying to smear somebody that they are making it political while they are actually trying to unpoliticize it. This was before emrgency was declared. And only 8 people were confirmed in California. Check the timeline: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelin…

Again, "Not me and my side, it was all the other guys." The Washington Post reported that six other countries had restricted travel from China before January 30, six did so on January 31, and by the time U.S. travel restrictions became effective on February 2, 38 other countries had taken action before or at the same time as the U.S. restrictions. In what universe does telling people to get out and gather in groups m…

> Looking at the timeline: "The first case of community transmission, because it had no known origin, is confirmed in Solano County, California, on February 26."

Wasn't there a community-spread case in Seattle a little earlier than that?

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#749

Post by ifyoubuildit » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 1:19 PM UTC

ajuc wrote: post #677

spookthesunset wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the government announced tomorrow that they would be putting all unvaccinated people in internment camps for everyone's safety, how many people do you think would be in favor? If messaged properly (eg: getting “the experts” to hint at it, getting NYT to push for it, etc) I bet a shockingly high amount of people in blue regions would cheer it on. I’m convinced that all that kept this from escalating to violence i…

There's already been violence over vaccination and masks. Mostly from the usual side (alt-right): [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] It's one thing to try to be objective and look at both sides. It's another to purposefully present a political issue as independent from political views. Anti-vax and anti-mask attitudes, conspiracy theories and tendency to violence are positively correlated with right-wing political views. That's jus…

> Anti-vax and anti-mask attitudes, conspiracy theories and tendency to violence are positively correlated with right-wing political views. That's just how it is.

Sounds like a decent reason to maybe keep these people separate from the rest of the population, just for a little while until everything is back to normal. How would you feel about that? Would you cheer? Would you miss a paycheck to protest in the streets?

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#750

Post by BeFlatXIII » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 1:30 PM UTC

titzer wrote: post #468

cjsplat wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there was never data that said "masks don't work for the public" Actually there was plenty of data saying that masks don't work for the public. For example, https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... And there are many others - that was just an easy one I found today. Some similar studies even showed an increase in flu transmission among the subject population wearing masks. There were plenty o…

IMHO it was just a stupid call, because in the face of conflicting data, it would have been a better default option to recommend masks. That's easier to walk back than "oops, we were lying because we don't trust you rubes enough not to hoard, even when explicitly instructed not to hoard." In the beginning of the pandemic I, with effectively zero sewing skills, made a cloth mask out of spare clothing. They could have…

Explicitly instructing the public not to hoard is probably the fastest way to induce hoarding behavior. People will hoard two extras so that their family can have those as backup rather than risk them being sold out to the person who hoarded 10 extras when it's time for resupply.