Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths • Hacker News Board

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#201

Post by larkost » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 5:56 PM UTC

zionic wrote: post #119

Mikeb85 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With how governments have behaved I absolutely understand why people would distrust them and to be honest, I have absolutely zero trust in government right now too. They put politics and driving wedges between people to further entrench their positions (a bunch of provinces and our feds all called snap elections during Covid) over honesty and people. Even now instead of trying to assuage the fears of the vaccine hesi…

>They put politics and driving wedges between people to further entrench their positions The current vice president of the united states when on tv in 2020 telling the world she wouldn't take "trumps rushed vaccine".

This is a complete mischaracterization, and bordering on a lie at this point.

She was very specific about not taking it because President Trump said so (rightly, given Trump's history of promoting improving treatments). But you don't have to take my work for it, read her's:

"If Dr. Fauci, the doctors, tell us that we should take it, I'll be the first in line to take it. But if Donald Trump tells us we should take it, I'm not going to take it."

Only by omitting the first line can you argue that she was going to refuse the vaccine. And that is exactly what many Right-wing outlets have been doing, and that is a lie.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#202

Post by Jensson » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 5:56 PM UTC

tablespoon wrote: post #97

nverno wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the upside is that hopefully the govt/health authorities will learn a lesson and be better in the future. Id say in these situations any fallout is always the govt's fault since it is there to serve the people- a case of the customer is always right.

> But the upside is that hopefully the govt/health authorities will learn a lesson and be better in the future. But there's only so much they can do. Sowing distrust has proven to provide short-term self-benefit to many powerful interests (e.g. political factions, partisan media). Even if the health authorities have a perfect strategy, those interests will find an opening to subvert it (e.g. portraying initial confus…

In a multi party system sowing distrust in an opposing party doesn't help your party, it mostly helps parties adjacent to that party. So then the goal becomes to be as trustworthy as possible to the public rather than make the public hate the enemy. It really solves many of these issues.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#203

Post by thedingwing » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 5:56 PM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #156

The decision to lie to the public about masks fearing an N95 shortage for healthcare workers has been the biggest disaster in many minds. Ideally the government would have owned up and said: ‘wups we were supposed to be stockpiling these for the last 10 years when this topic came up in a disaster planning scenario (it did), but we didn’t do that and now there is no way we will have enough for many years because indus…

> would rather have one extra tank than available supply for every citizen

I think the problem here is that the Big Tank industry is paying kickbacks, but the Big Mask industry is not.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#204

Post by bigodbiel » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 5:56 PM UTC

Right now the CDC continues on its crusade against natural immunity, despite the dozens of studies proving otherwise. It’s understandable how public health policy has it pitfalls, but completely dismissing elementary biology is another shot in the foot.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#205

Post by dragontamer » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 5:56 PM UTC

greenail wrote: post #198

dragontamer wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These people who don't trust masks trust ivermectin. Just... talk with them. Its obvious. There's one political party pushing ivermectin as a solution, and the other one doesn't. They want "their side" to be correct on this issue. They don't trust masks because masks were chosen by "the other side". They don't trust vaccines (despite being pushed by Operation Warp Speed by Mr. Trump) because someone else became presi…

My post had nothing to do with any party affiliation. I was simply pointing out the data regarding where trust in our institutions is. Please ratchet the "they"/"other" stuff back a bit. I don't think it is helping us trust each other.

And my post is about the reality of our politics today.

People distrust masks but trust ivermectin. Why? Because certain leaders in certain political thoughts are pushing anti-mask and pro-ivermectin messages.

Its that simple. There's no need to mince words. People trust their leaders. If it helps, its the same reason why some liberals are all "Screw the rich", because they trust Bernie Sanders.

No one likes __Congress__ as an institution, but everyone likes their particular Senator/House rep. If not, those people would be immediately voted out. Its all the _OTHER_ reps that people don't like in Congress. Just as the institution was designed. That's how its supposed to work: you don't like the reps who push for stuff in their state/interests (but not your state and/or interests)... but you like the guy who represents your state/interests.

Perhaps I'm being too brutalistic or simple. But its really how I see things.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#206

Post by valeness » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 5:57 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #82

colordrops wrote: post #10

The article is discussing the media and government being intentionally vague or even misinformative because they don't trust the public, but it backfires and causes more distrust. The flip side that wasn't discussed is the belittling and censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives, which engendered even more distrust. Their strategy of information control backfired, and they doubled down. Now we've got…

In my opinion the biggest example of this was the poor mask guidance early on in the pandemic that was subsequently reversed. Zeynep Tufekci had a very good piece in the NYT on this: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-... The real fear was that there would be a run on masks by the public, making them unavailable for hospital use. Also, at the time, there wasn't clear evidence of the effective…

(speaking generally here at those I've seen share the same rage, not accusing you directly)

I just cannot wrap my head around being so upset that a public official lied you're willing to sever friendships, familial ties, and sacrifice your career because you refuse to follow sane and frankly manageable guidelines to prevent the spread of COVID-19. It's not even that the messaging is currently or has been conflicting now. It's like carrying a grudge for years over the smallest of infractions. Are people so bored, they have nothing going on other than to get in a big tizzy about having to wear a mask?

My life has been far more impacted by university security towing my car back when I was 19 and me using a credit card to get it back. Leaving me with debt I couldn't afford for the next year or so. I clearly remember my parents, and all adults in my life, telling me to "suck it up" when I complained how unfair it was. I believe I was far more justified using the parking space at a place I paid 6 grand a semester to attend than any of those adults are now to enter private property for free without wearing a mask.

Why is it only during a global pandemic, with millions of lives on the line, do these same people all of a sudden care about the tiniest bits of hypocrisy and unfairness of our society? Of all the things to be upset about, they choose the one thing that has been proven since mid-2020 to SAVE lives? I literally cannot wrap my head around it. Just wear the fucking mask! Not wearing a mask is such a weird hill to die on...

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#207

Post by AnimalMuppet » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 5:57 PM UTC

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #160

switch007 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They certainly weren't talking about the risks and side effects when telling the entire country the only way to get your life and rights back is to take the vaccine. The message was: get the vaccine, get the vaccine, get the vaccine, do your moral duty

Because the risks of not getting the vaccine are orders of magnitude higher than the risks of getting the vaccine. It's absolutely insane that were still having this conversation at this point.

But, see, people don't work that way. If you say that the risk of dying from Covid is 1%, and the risk from the vaccine is 0.001%, (at least some) people can look at those numbers and figure out what's reasonable to do. But if you say that the risk from Covid is 1% and the vaccine is "safe", then people think you mean the risk from the vaccine is 0, and they say, "You're lying; my cousin's co-worker's nephew got sick from it", and they will refuse to take it.

Be honest about the risk of the vaccine. It's less, but it's not zero. Tell people that - all of that. Neither BSing them nor trying to force them has worked; try telling them the truth. Officially, consistently, tell them all of the truth - the risk as well as the safety.

[Edit: Of course, telling them the truth may not actually work either... at least, not if you define "work" as "they get the vaccine". But even so, at least they had the information to make a real choice.]

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#208

Post by romwell » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 5:57 PM UTC

8eye wrote: post #135

betterunix2 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Censorship is not what causes large numbers of US citizens to refuse this vaccine. If the Republicans in leadership positions took this seriously from the start and did not go around casting doubt on vaccination far more people would get the vaccine. If the previous president had not politicized the response to COVID and had simply told his followers to do what the CDC says we would have many millions more people get…

no disrespect but i know plenty of liberals who will not get the vaccine. the media turned it into a bi-partisan issue when in all actuality it was a government handling issue in which the rest were used as scapegoats. you remember that they gave themselves raises while the rest of us were told not to go into work. which obviously we are gonna listen if we believe that covid is as dangerous as the scientist were sayi…

>no disrespect but i know plenty of liberals who will not get the vaccine

No disrespect, just statistics [1].

Democrat:Republican ratio among is about 3:5 among the unvaccinated (and about 2:1 among the vaccinated).

>you make them a slave to your narrative, and if they become slaves, they will push to make you a slave as well by whatever means necessary

With all due respect, the example you gave of that is the behavior of the Republican party (abortion bans in Texas). I can provide many more examples from that side, and it seems to be disproportionately popular with people who support that party.

I don't see this happening with non-Republican supporters.

I also have an issue with "you make them a slave to your narrative". The enslaving effect of abortion bans is easily understood; but in which way was Texas "enslaved" by anything Biden's administration did to do that?

It really seems like you're drawing a false equivalence here, because as far as I can see, it's less eye-for-an-eye and more one of the parties going wild with poking eyes out, and getting hurt and offended by the "narrative" of anyone wearing glasses.

[1]https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-co...

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#209

Post by MattGaiser » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 5:57 PM UTC

mmmpop wrote: post #87

MattGaiser wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how can you--with a straight face--pretend that their ability to pick leaders or vote on actual issues is a correct way to run a country?" By arguing that the other options are worse. Democracy and the separation of powers do not result in great decision making. But it also serves as a significant barrier against absolutely horrible decision making, placing it above the other choices.

What separation of power? The country is run by executive fiat and every 4 years the law of the land takes an about face when the next guy comes along to rip up the old guy's diktats. The US legislative branch is kabuki theater and the judicial branch is disgustingly partisan.

Executive orders only allow decisions within the scope of existing laws. So you can move enforcement resources around to prioritize certain things, direct the military to hit different targets, etc. But the executive branch can't just stand up a new daycare program. In plenty of other countries, a change in party control leads to wild changes. Not in the USA.

And whether the legislative branch is theatrical and the judicial branch partisan has nothing to do with the separation of powers. Ok, so they may not work all that well. They are still constrained significantly by each other.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#210

Post by tinus_hn » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 5:57 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #82

colordrops wrote: post #10

The article is discussing the media and government being intentionally vague or even misinformative because they don't trust the public, but it backfires and causes more distrust. The flip side that wasn't discussed is the belittling and censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives, which engendered even more distrust. Their strategy of information control backfired, and they doubled down. Now we've got…

In my opinion the biggest example of this was the poor mask guidance early on in the pandemic that was subsequently reversed. Zeynep Tufekci had a very good piece in the NYT on this: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-... The real fear was that there would be a run on masks by the public, making them unavailable for hospital use. Also, at the time, there wasn't clear evidence of the effective…

The reality still is, if you don’t carefully specify the kind of masks people are supposed to use (or even specify they have to use non-medical masks!) the effect, if any, is so small it isn’t measurable.

It’s just such a great virtue signal that people keep clinging to it.