Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths • Hacker News Board

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#661

Post by HWR_14 » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 6:26 AM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #82

colordrops wrote: post #10

The article is discussing the media and government being intentionally vague or even misinformative because they don't trust the public, but it backfires and causes more distrust. The flip side that wasn't discussed is the belittling and censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives, which engendered even more distrust. Their strategy of information control backfired, and they doubled down. Now we've got…

In my opinion the biggest example of this was the poor mask guidance early on in the pandemic that was subsequently reversed. Zeynep Tufekci had a very good piece in the NYT on this: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-... The real fear was that there would be a run on masks by the public, making them unavailable for hospital use. Also, at the time, there wasn't clear evidence of the effective…

Telling people they didn't need to wear masks was a horrible idea. The worst decision by the public health apparatus (as opposed to the political leadership, which made a lot of blunders at various levels) in 2020 and probably the entire past 100 years.

I don't know anyone who defended that at the time or now. On the other hand, I don't know anyone who thought masks wouldn't work well either. Everyone I knew ignored that.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#662

Post by HWR_14 » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 6:29 AM UTC

throw_nbvc1234 wrote: post #561

wolverine876 wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People will listen to a reasonable, nuanced discussion. They won't listen to someone who hates them. The victim argument is standard rhetoric, but they can choose to do what they want. For one thing, I haven't seen much hate at all. Could you give examples of it on a significant scale? Some leaders expressing hate? Mostly, I see resignation.

https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/

What political leaders are posting there? Public health leaders? Even medical personnel? Because those people should probably be fired and replaced if they are publicly associated with it.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#663

Post by laurent92 » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 6:30 AM UTC

colordrops wrote: post #10

The article is discussing the media and government being intentionally vague or even misinformative because they don't trust the public, but it backfires and causes more distrust. The flip side that wasn't discussed is the belittling and censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives, which engendered even more distrust. Their strategy of information control backfired, and they doubled down. Now we've got…

But I have a question: Why did all governments have exactly the same behavior? Was there a handbook saying “talk to your citizen like dumb children” that was somehow mandatory reading before purchasing the vaccine? Why the coordinated action?

Erratic behavior doesn’t explain it to me — it was far from random, all particles went the same way.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#664

Post by johnisgood » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 6:35 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #616

reducesuffering wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no matter what the government told people to do, there was going to be a contingent of people that would do the exact opposite because we are a stubborn and distrustful people. Americans are this way because the government continually gives them a reason to. The lying through the pandemic, the Iraq war, it just goes on.

No, that's not really the reason. Those things just further solidified the pre-existing distrust/suspicion. It's built into the American ethos and the documents founding the republic itself. Having lived in multiple countries it's clear the US government doesn't necessarily lie more than others (often less!), it's just that American start with the premise "The government is probably lying to me".

In some Eastern European country they know that politicians are lying to them and are pocketing money. They do not even try to hide it. They even admitted it! What changed? Nothing. It is still an on-going issue and no one does anything.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#665

Post by HWR_14 » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 6:36 AM UTC

ravel-bar-foo wrote: post #515

cat_plus_plus wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Toilet paper shortage was caused by shift from commercial to residential purchasing, with different packaging/distribution/purchase size characteristics. It's not a convenient item for scalping due to low value per volume (comparing to hundreds of $1K iPhones easily fitting in a car trunk.

One temporary solution would be for businesses to distribute / sell rolls of their no longer needed toilet paper to employees. Employees might not have a compatible dispenser at home, but in a shortage they could put it on a flat surface and peel off as needed. Lack of out of the box thinking...

Businesses did sell their stock. But the distribution lines to businesses rapidly collapsed due to lack of demand (or not in the case of essential businesses), and it wasn't viable to keep them open to just distribute commercial toilet paper.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#666

Post by johnisgood » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 6:37 AM UTC

danhak wrote: post #317

nielsbot wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't have to be rational. Vaccines mandates are already common for school children, nurses, (and maybe teachers, but I'm not sure about that one) The rage over masks (and things like "CRT") is being intentionally stoked to win elections. The plan is to make it an us vs them issue. Again, it's intentional and cynical. If you stoke rage about mask wearing (and vaccines) you can position yourself as also being a v…

Government-imposed vaccine mandates were never common for access to private establishments, as is now the case in NYC and LA Philosophically speaking, It's one thing for the government to say you must be vaccinated to attend public school. It's quite another thing for them to say you must be vaccinated to enter a privately-owned gym.

Or: you must be vaccinated to go to school, AND you must go to school (until you turn into an adult). This means that you have no choice. Not getting vaccinated means you cannot go to school, and not going to school means you may be taken away from your family, or your parents getting into legal trouble. That, and of course not being able to go to school has its own repercussions.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#667

Post by thepangolino » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 6:38 AM UTC

colordrops wrote: post #10

The article is discussing the media and government being intentionally vague or even misinformative because they don't trust the public, but it backfires and causes more distrust. The flip side that wasn't discussed is the belittling and censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives, which engendered even more distrust. Their strategy of information control backfired, and they doubled down. Now we've got…

I also have serious doubt about those who took the vaccine now. Would they have ratted on Anne Frank after a similar propaganda campaign that made them take the vaccine?

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#668

Post by autoexec » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 6:38 AM UTC

ameminator wrote: post #659

autoexec wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty changed their mind due to seeing the subreddit. You can find a bunch by searching it for "IPA" and the twitter account https://twitter.com/YassIPAqueen shares a bunch as well. I don't think the hateful comments are the reason people are changing their minds though. I think it's just seeing example after example of people who think like they do facing the consequences of their actions which really drives home t…

I think a lot more people would be convinced by images of these ICUs and seeing the impact of not being vaccinated as well. However, let's not pretend that the whole point of that subreddit is to "encourage people to get vaccinated". It's to feel good about people (who disagree with you) dying. Maybe if we remembered that some of these unfortunates had more to their lives than being anti-vax, we could be a bit more c…

> Maybe if we remembered that some of these unfortunates had more to their lives than being anti-vax, we could be a bit more compassionate

Schadenfreude plays a big part for sure! From what I can tell though the fact that these people have families that love them and children that depend on them isn't lost on the subreddit. It just makes people more angry at them for not taking the simple steps that would have saved their lives and spared a lot of needless suffering. When you have people pridefully hurting everyone around them it's going to cause some resentment. They don't just leave their families with emotional grief and guilt they will carry for the rest of their lives, but also with massive amounts of financial debit due to medical expenses which would be unheard of in other developed nations. That too is usually something of a self-inflicted wound.

I don't agree with the gleeful hateful comments, but I can easily see how compassion is starting to wear very thin. I also wish we had more of a view into ICUs and what goes on in hospitals and funeral homes. I don't know how to do that while still respecting the privacy of the people suffering though.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#669

Post by skocznymroczny » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 6:39 AM UTC

post_from_work wrote: post #555

spookthesunset wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not always wear a mask? Why have we decided this one specific illness deserves this level of “safety”?

>>>Why not always wear a mask? Facemask usage has been common in Asia, I think largely due to SARS ( I didn't live here back when that kicked off). It's normal for customer service staff to wear masks even if they just have a mild sniffle/headcold. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/culture-shocked/2020...

Facemask usage is common in Asia mostly due to air pollution, especially in places like China or South-East Asian countries.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#670

Post by laurent92 » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 6:42 AM UTC

skocznymroczny wrote: post #660

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion the biggest example of this was the poor mask guidance early on in the pandemic that was subsequently reversed. Zeynep Tufekci had a very good piece in the NYT on this: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-... The real fear was that there would be a run on masks by the public, making them unavailable for hospital use. Also, at the time, there wasn't clear evidence of the effective…

I'm not convinced by that narrative. I think there is still limited proof that masks make any noticeable difference. But the public demanded mask mandates (unlike things like vaccines this is very noticeable so for many people it gives them a peace of mind that something is being done), so the officials delivered. But to save face, they invented a story how they always knew masks work great, but didn't want people to…

This. The officials dig up a scientific story that justifies going along what their electorate among the public demands, then they back up with a cohort of white coats on TV.

Simon says we don’t have masks, so science finds masks useless.

Simon says wear masks, so science finds masks important.

It says “We’ll lie to your face just for the lols”. Also, my government inoculated AIDS to 10,000 patients in 1985 and took 6 years to admit it. This science, is not science. It’s very diligently pruned for political profit, and it works.

So “I’ll take my vaccine in 6 years” is a reasonable answer in a former communist state.