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Major nuclear fusion milestone reached as ‘ignition’ triggered in a lab

imperial.ac.uk

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Re: Major nuclear fusion milestone reached as ‘ignition’ triggered in a lab

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s just simple arithmetic, however you want to subsidize or socialize the cost, the fact is that renewables have higher cost per MW. Every dollar spent on higher energy costs is a dollar not spent in other things. This will impact growth.

Sure, but aren't fossil fuels also subsidized? Haven't the costs been reduced due to the economies of scale and time? Are the environmental downsides not considered part of the cost? I get it, renewables are still more expensive, but are they really doomed to trap more people in poverty? Couldn't one argue that the unbalanced economic systems are the primary thing that traps people in poverty and the cost of energy i…

> Sure, but aren't fossil fuels also subsidized?

Yes, that has to do nothing with my point.

> Haven't the costs been reduced due to the economies of scale and time?

That's a sunken cost fallacy. What we have already spent doesn't matter. What matters is what we choose today, and what consequences does it bring.

> Are the environmental downsides not considered part of the cost?

Off course, that's the main issue. Environmental costs are gigantic, but they are also far into the future.

> renewables are still more expensive, but are they really doomed to trap more people in poverty?

Anything that hampers growth will have massive consequences on the long run. Higher energy prices will heavily reduce growth, even if we assume that there's margin for efficiency to be gained from economies of scale and technology improvements.

> Couldn't one argue that the unbalanced economic systems are the primary thing that traps people in poverty and the cost of energy is simply a minor factor?

You could argue the first one if you'd like, I won't because it would be getting off topic. As for the second, the cost of energy is a massive factor into the economy, because energy underpins anything we do. The only real solution we've found to poverty is growth. The worlds wealth follows an exponential, tampering with the base has serious implications when you are looking at climatic timescales.

> There are certainly countries with low energy costs and high poverty rates.

Let me try to explain in another way. We are at a crossroads. Whatever our past is, our current situation, it's no matter now, that's behind us. We can choose path A, or path B.

Path A (continue to use natural gas) keeps us going. We know that at some point we'll have to deal with the consequences of climate change, but we can modulate our use, and take our time. We are making the future costs higher, there's no doubt about that, but we might be better equipped to switch to renewables in 40 years. There's no reason to rush the switch.

Path B (completely switching to renewables now). This will limit our growth for sure. It will also require us to sort out now how best to handle the transition, because rising prices with our current system will leave a lot of people without heating in the winter, or unable to use appliances like dishwashers (I'm in Spain, our energy cost has been rising constantly, we are seeing this happening). We will need to change a lot in very short time. Our future climate costs will be lower.

In some sense, by choosing path A, we are betting that we will find better solutions at some point in the future. If we choose path B but if some new amazing renewable technology appears in say, 75 years, we've made a huge mistake.

Re: Major nuclear fusion milestone reached as ‘ignition’ triggered in a lab

#342
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every extra dollar saved on cheaper energy actually goes to lining some billionaire's pockets in some untaxed hole. And then eventually the people who would benefit from said social program will instead have to pay back a climate debt in the future.

If we are going to just made up magic pockets where infinite money lies, then we can justify whatever we please. The point of my comment is that it doesn't matter where the money is. Even if you were to pay it through massive taxes to the rich (assume no loopholes, no funny accounting tricks possible), the ones picking up the tab are the poor people of the future, because even if all millionaires are evil movie villa…

This growth fallacy is the main thing driving so much environmental destruction in the first place. Most effort is being wasted on churn rather than creating advancement, and this is increasing as time goes on (fake jobs). Until we reprioritize the economy to make efficiency gains translate into leisure gains, talking about "growth" is just cover for business as usual.

Re: Major nuclear fusion milestone reached as ‘ignition’ triggered in a lab

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, horse breeders argued the supply lines favored horses as horses could be fed by unlimited biofuels instead of limited fossil fuels. Of course, there was a difference in scale, but it’s just false to claim there weren’t major naysayers about automobiles from the horse industry.

People thought fossil fuels were a finite resource back then? I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if someone thought that, but given the frequency with which oil was being discovered, it seems reasonable that people would have assumed it to be effectively unlimited.

Even in the late 1800s when cars were just starting to be used, the ultimate scarcity of fossil fuels (including coal) was explored by Jules Verne who suggested hydrogen as a successor fuel in The Mysterious Island. And local scarcity of fossil fuels was acknowledged since everyone knew that oil wells started reducing output after a few years.

Nikola Tesla spoke glowingly about how we don’t need coal, oil, or gas if we just harness the energy around us (what he meant here was quackery, unfortunately, but wind and solar accomplish very much the same thing). People understood from the beginning that coal, oil, and gas are finite.

Re: Major nuclear fusion milestone reached as ‘ignition’ triggered in a lab

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, the consequences of climate change are billions cast into abject poverty, wars over resources and land, and so on. Moreover, if we do away with carbon subsidies (i.e., implement carbon pricing and border adjustments), then yes the cost of fossil fuel energy goes up, the consequence is the society adapts to using power more efficiently. We make less disposable shit, our industrial processes improve to keep…

"Of course, the consequences of climate change are billions cast into abject poverty" The only way to end climate change is to have a serious debate about population control. But no one wants difficult debates (at least people that matter). Nuclear fission once pulled off will make things much much worse. I foresee a population explosion into areas once uninhabitable.

An actual debate on population control would be looking at reducing the number of children in the developed world even more, and discouraging suburban housing.

Re: Major nuclear fusion milestone reached as ‘ignition’ triggered in a lab

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Natural gas is only inexpensive because of fracking. With fracking in the USA at least the people involved can set up an LLC that dissolves after the well runs out. They are not required to disclose the contents of the fracking wastewater fluid. It gets pumped back down underground where it could dissipate into the rest of the water system. These people claim that it's safe for decades when our computer models can't…

What a great way to not answer what OP is asking. If you don’t like fracking, that’s alright, but sustaining ourselves without it it’s not really an option. Right now our options are: 1) Use coal, accept the consequences of the increased climate change. 2) Keep using gas, reduce the future costs of climate change, deal later with the speculative consequences you mention. 3) Switch to renewables and drastically increa…

Option 4, use a mixture of modern nuclear and renewables. Power prices go up slightly, environmental footprint goes down a lot.

Re: Major nuclear fusion milestone reached as ‘ignition’ triggered in a lab

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a great way to not answer what OP is asking. If you don’t like fracking, that’s alright, but sustaining ourselves without it it’s not really an option. Right now our options are: 1) Use coal, accept the consequences of the increased climate change. 2) Keep using gas, reduce the future costs of climate change, deal later with the speculative consequences you mention. 3) Switch to renewables and drastically increa…

Of course, the consequences of climate change are billions cast into abject poverty, wars over resources and land, and so on. Moreover, if we do away with carbon subsidies (i.e., implement carbon pricing and border adjustments), then yes the cost of fossil fuel energy goes up, the consequence is the society adapts to using power more efficiently. We make less disposable shit, our industrial processes improve to keep…

> Of course, the consequences of climate change are billions cast into abject poverty

That may be true, but I was referring to the effects of switching to renewables too early. Since given our technology, the cost per MW is higher from renewables, switching to renewables (as a society) has massive costs. If we rise the price of the MW a 10%, that's a +10% on every MW from now until we find something better. That could be a long time, which means the impact of these costs could be gigantic. As I've commented elsewhere in this article, a 0.75% reduction on GDP over 100 years is equivalent to losing more than the entire (current) annual GDP, that's not nothing! Growth is how we've managed to move millions out of poverty, we should think it through before sacrificing growth.

Re: Major nuclear fusion milestone reached as ‘ignition’ triggered in a lab

#348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a great way to not answer what OP is asking. If you don’t like fracking, that’s alright, but sustaining ourselves without it it’s not really an option. Right now our options are: 1) Use coal, accept the consequences of the increased climate change. 2) Keep using gas, reduce the future costs of climate change, deal later with the speculative consequences you mention. 3) Switch to renewables and drastically increa…

Option 4, use a mixture of modern nuclear and renewables. Power prices go up slightly, environmental footprint goes down a lot.

I'd love for the world to see that Option 4 would be great (I'd chose that one too!), but it's not a politically viable option. I was limiting the options to the "realistic" ones, given our current constraints.

Re: Major nuclear fusion milestone reached as ‘ignition’ triggered in a lab

#349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, the consequences of climate change are billions cast into abject poverty, wars over resources and land, and so on. Moreover, if we do away with carbon subsidies (i.e., implement carbon pricing and border adjustments), then yes the cost of fossil fuel energy goes up, the consequence is the society adapts to using power more efficiently. We make less disposable shit, our industrial processes improve to keep…

"Of course, the consequences of climate change are billions cast into abject poverty" The only way to end climate change is to have a serious debate about population control. But no one wants difficult debates (at least people that matter). Nuclear fission once pulled off will make things much much worse. I foresee a population explosion into areas once uninhabitable.

Pretty sure you could just price in carbon. Poverty is more like not driving an f150 2 hours to your job at office, not max eating 6 steaks a week, taking shorter showers, and turning your AC in south Texas in August from 62 to 78

Re: Major nuclear fusion milestone reached as ‘ignition’ triggered in a lab

#350

@dang This was reported and discussed 12 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28704298 The important thing to know is that the NIF is about nuclear weapons design (verification of modeling software used for nuclear weapons design), not about developing fusion power plants.

Kind of crazy that we're still spending money on this. Do we really need better H-bombs?
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