The article is discussing the media and government being intentionally vague or even misinformative because they don't trust the public, but it backfires and causes more distrust. The flip side that wasn't discussed is the belittling and censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives, which engendered even more distrust. Their strategy of information control backfired, and they doubled down. Now we've got…
Censorship is not what causes large numbers of US citizens to refuse this vaccine. If the Republicans in leadership positions took this seriously from the start and did not go around casting doubt on vaccination far more people would get the vaccine. If the previous president had not politicized the response to COVID and had simply told his followers to do what the CDC says we would have many millions more people get…
Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths
391–400 of 837 posts
Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths
#392Earlier quoted context omitted.
People in the US have become very good at totally ignoring the argument and just tribalizing the approach to everything. X must be right and how dare you question them as they are part of us. Nothing can be nuanced anymore. Read a twitter thread this morning discussing a father whose daughter was raped in a high school bathroom and then the perpetrator who they did not really make clear if it was someone that was tra…
My interpretation is the the life in the US has been so good that Americans could never imagine what it was like living in 1950's Cuba, 1960's China, 1970's Cambodia, and North Korea. Do people really think that people in those countries were evil or were crazy? The truth is, the people there started with good intentions. They wanted to have equity. They were pained by all kinds of oppression. They genuinely believed…
Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths
#393Earlier quoted context omitted.
This matches a lot of my own experience in trying to convince people to take reasonable precautions and get vaccinated. And I was one of the first in line for my age group in my state. You have to do things to build trust first, and you have to be willing to admit that some of the measures taken are farcical and have no basis in science. People will listen to a reasonable, nuanced discussion. They won't listen to som…
'just follow the rules'... that's exactly how we get the blind unreasonableness we're seeing everywhere. you need to examine your assumption that masks are doing anything at all in most common situations, and then consider what's actually reasonable vs. what you've rationalized yourself into. humility is missing in your thrust to convince others of your correctness.
If I was running things, I would tell people that they have no power to punish anyone whatsoever and design the Covid rules with that in mind, making them focused entirely on helping people instead of controlling them.
Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths
#394Earlier quoted context omitted.
It doesn't have to be rational. Vaccines mandates are already common for school children, nurses, (and maybe teachers, but I'm not sure about that one) The rage over masks (and things like "CRT") is being intentionally stoked to win elections. The plan is to make it an us vs them issue. Again, it's intentional and cynical. If you stoke rage about mask wearing (and vaccines) you can position yourself as also being a v…
>It doesn't have to be rational. Vaccines mandates are already common for school children, nurses, (and maybe teachers, but I'm not sure about that one) Even this argument ignores nuance. The vaccines in these schedules are mandated for 2 reasons 1. The diseases they treat directly impact their population in a major way in large numbers 2. Immunization not only prevents the negatives impacts of 1, but also prevent th…
Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths
#395Earlier quoted context omitted.
>It doesn't have to be rational. Vaccines mandates are already common for school children, nurses, (and maybe teachers, but I'm not sure about that one) Even this argument ignores nuance. The vaccines in these schedules are mandated for 2 reasons 1. The diseases they treat directly impact their population in a major way in large numbers 2. Immunization not only prevents the negatives impacts of 1, but also prevent th…
There's something horribly wrong with your link [3]. " The first study saw a drop of 78%, and the second 41%, in infectiousness — with the large difference in numbers perhaps explained by the fact that the estimates are based on a very small number of vaccinated people who were infected and then infected others. ... The results correspond well with studies conducted elsewhere. One analysis3 of some 365,000 households…
Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths
#396Earlier quoted context omitted.
Also Fauci in early March 2020 mocking the idea of people changing their travel plans as an overreaction. Also Fauci shooting-down lab-origin theories in public, while his private emails – still heavily redacted! – imply contemporaneous discussion of such an origin as a serious possibility. Also Fauci misestimating a vaccine as at least a year and half away. Also Fauci helping to fluff Trump's lowball estimates of th…
Whatever you think of Fauci, he's amazingly well connected in elite circles. To the point he has people making fawning movies about his life and career. https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/fauci
Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths
#397The article is discussing the media and government being intentionally vague or even misinformative because they don't trust the public, but it backfires and causes more distrust. The flip side that wasn't discussed is the belittling and censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives, which engendered even more distrust. Their strategy of information control backfired, and they doubled down. Now we've got…
Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths
#398Earlier quoted context omitted.
Broadly after seeing some of the material coming out of the UK "think tanks" in early 2020 this was really "govt, starched collar, upper class" thinking that the proles will start eating themselves if we even mention that there's a chance they could die. I think projected compliance with a lockdown in the UK was initially estimated and serious attempts were made to model it at 40% compliance. When govt got near 95%+…
We still haven't reached herd immunity in the UK, and we have 49 of 67 million people vaccinated (plus some of the rest previously infected). The idea we'd have had fewer COVID casualties by allowing it to spread more easily before the winter is not one supported by evidence.
The nonsense here is how herd immunity is estimated/measured. There is no/little consensus on how this is defined and given how polarised this is it probably never will be.
The reality is that the UK adult population is heading to 90% vaccinated. If you want to measure immunity to death from the disease as immunity we're at about 90%.
Please don't ever pretend that's not enough. I cannot fathom a model even as bad as that used in report 9 where this doesn't lead to the virus effectively dying out in a population. This will be one of the _many_ reasons with high cases in the UK we're not seeing bodies being piled high outside hospitals.
As for actually stopping the spread of the disease itself, this would have happened much sooner had people caught it and have a _full_ immune response which makes them less likely to transmit the virus.
The point of this is that govt. expected that the virus would spread during lockdown 1 (early 2020) because people wouldn't follow the rules (it spread more due to insanely bad policy and it getting into nursing homes and hospitals and hitting the at-risk).
The initial plan was to open-up once the 'first wave' dropped reached numbers the NHS could cope with and that there would be an open/close/open/close approach as numbers rose to keep the hospital cases at manageable levels. After seeing the high compliance we kept the lockdown and aimed for a zero-covid policy which is where Australia and New Zealand are... We didn't see the first wave really hit. We shut down too early and too hard in lockdown 1. This led to the amount of people building an immunity being very low.
During the relaxing in summer-2020 the places that returned to normal the most ended up with higher case numbers during summer and typically this led to a slower spread and lower peak hospitalisations during the winter of 2020-2021. This is backed when comparing the high number of cases during the summer by region with England and the initial rate of cases in the same regions at the start of winter. This diverges once winter properly set in as other factors became dominant. This is not rocket science
In the winter of 2020-2021 the UK locked down too late and more people at risk died. This being too late was a combination of factors "it only kills over 80s" from Boris, the lockdown being too effective, the vaccine being around the corner and so on...
Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths
#399Earlier quoted context omitted.
Go back a year and see who was saying the vaccine was not safe. Explicitly saying you don't trust the vaccine because your political opponent was president when it was created is political plain and simple.
When your political opponent is an unintelligent charlatan who can’t speak two words without spouting a lie, then perhaps some caution would be warranted where public health is concerned.
Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths
#400Earlier quoted context omitted.
Doubtful. Just think about the toilet paper shortage; a common household item that never would have had a supply shortage if people just maintained their regular buying patterns. Now think of masks; a non-household item that a small percentage of households carried. Even if people were reasonable and only bought an amount to cover their needs, that would have introduced hundreds of millions of new buyers for that ite…
Solution, be honest: "Masks work, but we don't have enough and need them for hospitals so you're not allowed to buy any. Wrap a tshirt around your face instead, it's probably better than nothing."