Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths • Hacker News Board

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#331

Post by takeda » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 7:07 PM UTC

Jensson wrote: post #247

takeda wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't to me. What she said it is: - I won't take it if trump alone tells me to take it - I will be first to take it if experts give their thumbs up Some people take the whole thing at face value, some take only the first part and ignore the rest. In 70s Ford used political pressure to speed up swine flu vaccine development and that had negative consequences.

> It doesn't to me. What she said it is: That is mostly a nonsense statement, public health professionals and the state recommend the same things. Not all health professionals but it isn't like a vaccine would get rolled out without any health professionals recommending it. > In 70s Ford used political pressure to speed up swine flu vaccine development and that had negative consequences. And did public health profess…

> That is mostly a nonsense statement, public health professionals and the state recommend the same things. Not all health professionals but it isn't like a vaccine would get rolled out without any health professionals recommending it.

She particularly mentioned Fauci, until 2020 he was respected and known to not being political and served all presidents since Reagan.

> I don't see how her statement can be taken as anything but "Republicans are also pro vaccine now, so we need to sow divisiveness in another way!". If she truly cared about peoples health she would have taken the opportunity to unite the people and the politicians over the vaccination issue here.

I don't at that point we didn't even know if WH wasn't planning to purchase vaccines from Russia (they had them available before Pfizer, I think July 2020).

Once vaccines were available to people, they were approved in other western countries as well, which boosted confidence in them.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#332

Post by taxicabjesus » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 7:08 PM UTC

nielsbot wrote: post #217

valeness wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(speaking generally here at those I've seen share the same rage, not accusing you directly) I just cannot wrap my head around being so upset that a public official lied you're willing to sever friendships, familial ties, and sacrifice your career because you refuse to follow sane and frankly manageable guidelines to prevent the spread of COVID-19. It's not even that the messaging is currently or has been conflicting…

It doesn't have to be rational. Vaccines mandates are already common for school children, nurses, (and maybe teachers, but I'm not sure about that one) The rage over masks (and things like "CRT") is being intentionally stoked to win elections. The plan is to make it an us vs them issue. Again, it's intentional and cynical. If you stoke rage about mask wearing (and vaccines) you can position yourself as also being a v…

> If you stoke rage about mask wearing (and vaccines) you can position yourself as also being a valiant anti-mask/anti-vax candidate and win elections on this issue.

I'm trying to stoke awareness of how oxygen is known to be toxic, how ventilation is known to be harmful, and how patients' oxygen levels can be improved by using the antidote to oxygen toxicity that has been mostly forgotten by Science™ [0]. Sometimes patients benefit from a little extra oxygen, but it's a very fine line between helpful and too much.

Would I win an election? Maybe an anti-mask/anti-vax candidate will just adopt my term, and point out the harm being done: Medical Hyperventilation causes the deterioration supposedly being treated.

[0] https://www.taxiwars.org/2021/06/folly-medical-hyperventilat...

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#333

Post by ars » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 7:10 PM UTC

larkost wrote: post #201

zionic wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They put politics and driving wedges between people to further entrench their positions The current vice president of the united states when on tv in 2020 telling the world she wouldn't take "trumps rushed vaccine".

This is a complete mischaracterization, and bordering on a lie at this point. She was very specific about not taking it because President Trump said so (rightly, given Trump's history of promoting improving treatments). But you don't have to take my work for it, read her's: "If Dr. Fauci, the doctors, tell us that we should take it, I'll be the first in line to take it. But if Donald Trump tells us we should take it,…

Your characterization is even more misleading than theirs. Do you seriously think Trump created the vaccine himself and it didn't go through the FDA and scientists or anything else?

The mere existence of the vaccine should be enough for her but no if Trump said something she won't take it.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#334

Post by HideousKojima » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 7:10 PM UTC

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #160

switch007 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They certainly weren't talking about the risks and side effects when telling the entire country the only way to get your life and rights back is to take the vaccine. The message was: get the vaccine, get the vaccine, get the vaccine, do your moral duty

Because the risks of not getting the vaccine are orders of magnitude higher than the risks of getting the vaccine. It's absolutely insane that were still having this conversation at this point.

Not for young people

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#335

Post by menimax » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 7:11 PM UTC

When people with money start to pay for fake vaccine certificates is the time for majority to ask why they pay for not getting something, that is given for free. Or like - everyone should take our vaccine - me:no i did't took it yet :), Like - Coke is a poison to sell, not to take. - guess who's remembered for saying that.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#336

Post by themaninthedark » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 7:11 PM UTC

nobody9999 wrote: post #300

joshuaissac wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because once they lose their credibility, everything they say will be viewed with distrust. > If the claim that masks "don't work" caused folks to distrust public health authorities I would say it is more the contradictory messaging that caused the distrust, than the initial claim that masks do not work.

>I would say it is more the backtracking that caused the distrust. And so, if I say "gravity does not exist" and then turn around and say that the effect we call "gravity" accelerates matter at 9.8 meters per second per second, that means "the effect we call gravity" doesn't exist? That's a strange way to look at it, IMHO.

If you claim that gravity does not exist, then turn around and say that the effect we call "gravity" accelerates matter at 9.8 meters per second per second.

Then you go and claim that magnetism does not exist, I will probably not believe you.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#337

Post by motohagiography » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 7:12 PM UTC

Kind words, but possibly too late, and they won't change anyones mind. Authorities have forfeited public trust by co-ordinating to decieve people, censor them, and then reward others who publicly expressed their contempt for their fellow citizens, just to maintain the leverage. I do not see the path to reconciliation yet. Destroying millions of businesses and then doubling down by attacking guarantees of freedoms (speech, movement, association, bodily integrity, etc.) will not be remembered as having been justified or proportionate.

People without a lot of dignity and integrity have underestimated what the impact of their deception has been, because, really, I don't think they were equipped to apprehend it. I know some of them personally, and they became strident promoters of narrative-right-or-wrong because of their impostor syndromes, anxiety, depression, and self loathing. They thought that by renouncing their remaining dignity and denouncing their neighbours, they could find redemption in compliance.

What surprises me most is that the rhetoric in public forums has not spilled over into significant coordinated mutual violence yet. It's all still in the provocateur stage. Whether that materializes as a pervasive low-level long term conflict over decades like The Troubles in Ireland, or accelerated conflict like that which occurred in Bosnia in the 90s, the inflection point on the path toward outcomes analogous to those appears to have already passed and I believe we're into a period of managing consequences.

At this point, the only meaningful action is to find a way to mitigate the effects of western civil conflict, and then by extension, the total world war that results as other countries rush into the power vaccuum western domestic instability creates. Maybe the article recognizing the deception will give some of these people an out where there is still a way to turn it around, but if I were a betting man, I'd find a way to get long potable water.

Dark times.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#338

Post by h2odragon » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 7:13 PM UTC

thepasswordis wrote: post #230

You know who doesn't try to hide this stuff from people? Bad actors. Conspiracy theorists, scammers, straight up liars. So you've got on one hand "the experts" who are being vague and seemingly not wanting to tell you anything, and then on the other hand you've got the crazies who will tell you whatever you want to hear. It's something that is increasingly frustrating me about the vaccines. The vaccines have become a…

One of my problems with masks, for example; is that COVID is already prevalent in wildlife. That was known last summer. Chasing "less exposure" via masks after that is silly, seems to me.

I'm delighted they're making the vaccines freely available as they are. That's a magnificent success that is not yet as well celebrated as it deserves. Making vaccination status an issue, instead of immune status; is so stupid one has to wonder if it could be intentional. Especially as they keep doubling down on such decisions.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#339

Post by jdmichal » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 7:13 PM UTC

timr wrote: post #150

jasonlaramburu wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives Much of what you describe as 'censoring' was focused on stopping the promotion of false cures eg Hydroxychloroquine, Ivermectin, H2O2 nebulization etc. This type of speech is already highly regulated, as most people lack the capacity to 'do their own research' regarding a drug's safety or efficacy.

> Much of what you describe as 'censoring' was focused on stopping the promotion of false cures eg Hydroxychloroquine, Ivermectin, H2O2 nebulization etc. HCQ, while it has been bourne out that it doesn't work, was a perfect example of miscommunication and "protective censorship" breeding public mistrust: the initial papers that cast doubt on HCQ were based on fabricated data . Based on this initial bit of false data…

I feel like you're discounting the fact that these "prescriptions" didn't just manifest from the aether. Someone started the idea of these particular medications being effective. And not having a clinical trial means neither side has been proven correct. So where are people getting the idea from in the first place? That source is as much mis- or even dis-information as the subsequent attempts at damage control by the authorities. But yet it's given a complete pass in your comment?

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#340

Post by HideousKojima » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 7:15 PM UTC

nobody9999 wrote: post #300

joshuaissac wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because once they lose their credibility, everything they say will be viewed with distrust. > If the claim that masks "don't work" caused folks to distrust public health authorities I would say it is more the contradictory messaging that caused the distrust, than the initial claim that masks do not work.

>I would say it is more the backtracking that caused the distrust. And so, if I say "gravity does not exist" and then turn around and say that the effect we call "gravity" accelerates matter at 9.8 meters per second per second, that means "the effect we call gravity" doesn't exist? That's a strange way to look at it, IMHO.

>that means "the effect we call gravity" doesn't exist?

No, it means whether or not I believe it is unrelated to what you said, and I will instantly take any claims you make as suspect.