Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths • Hacker News Board

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#261

Post by r00fus » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 6:20 PM UTC

potta_coffee wrote: post #236

r00fus wrote: post #88

The lede is buried here, the reason the US is not cohesive is entirely due to the former president who continues to this day to support and spur the anti-vax movement.

I've seen lots of "right wing" people saying that Trump is betraying them by recommending the vaccine constantly. I don't think he's anti-vax.

That he is promoting the vaccine now doesn't ignore the fact that his anti-vax, anti-mask stance while in office essentially drove that movement.

There are numerous [1] points [2] where he could have changed [3] things and saved many many lives but decided it would help him politically to do the opposite.

The anti-vax movement is a monster he created, fed and hoped would net him a re-election. That it's turning on him now (that he's no longer in office) is sad but predictable.

[1] https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-downplaying-virus-mock...

[2] https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/02/politics/donald-trump-coronav...

[3] https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/calendar-confu...

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#262

Post by jallen_dot_dev » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 6:20 PM UTC

valeness wrote: post #216

EamonnMR wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really think this will go down as The Big Mistake that lost the public's trust in the US and made compliance for every subsequent measure difficult to sell, and opened the door to nutters.

This is a pretty privileged viewpoint imo. This one small thing lost the public's trust? Not the fact that cops used to pull me over for no reason because I lived in a poor neighborhood? Not the fact that my family member's lives were ruined because of tiny drug-related infractions? Not the fact that we went on a pointless 20+ year war for no reason (just the one within my lifetime)? Really. Wearing a mask is the bre…

Yes. The majority of the population doesn't experience the things you have, as unfair as that is. So I think the person you're replying to has a point.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#263

Post by greenail » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 6:22 PM UTC

jimbob45 wrote: post #158

betterunix2 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Censorship is not what causes large numbers of US citizens to refuse this vaccine. If the Republicans in leadership positions took this seriously from the start and did not go around casting doubt on vaccination far more people would get the vaccine. If the previous president had not politicized the response to COVID and had simply told his followers to do what the CDC says we would have many millions more people get…

This is exactly what I'm tracking for the 2022 election - is the public able to separate anti-mask/vaxx choice from anti-vaxxing within their minds? Or will the right be tied to anti-vaxxing by proxy? I'm leaning toward the latter. Most people I talk to think the right is actively pushing anti-vaxxing efforts despite top federal Congressional leadership explicitly encouraging vaccine procurement (and their former POT…

I don't think it is possible to make the distinction. It is too late unfortunately. I'm vaccinated and I'm ok with people making (what i view as) bad decisions. The fundamental issue here is a question about the role of government: let people hurt themselves or have a nanny state. I don't think anyone would listen though and I'll get lumped in with the antivaxxers regardless of the nuances of my opinion.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#264

Post by hackingforfun » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 6:23 PM UTC

ajkdhcb2 wrote: post #253

ssully wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for clarifying. This is why I don't know what the right answer is on the messaging. The US government, and nearly every government, has a history of lying to people. The other side of the coin though is that during those early months, and well into lock down, everything was up in the air about the virus, how it transmitted, and how to fight it. If I was in the position of how to convey that information to p…

I've disagreed with the general global response at essentially every step. I think any reasonable person would have done better, and get the feeling that there are likely ulterior motives and disgraceful politicised actions to explain how bad the response was. In particular, in the beginning there were very clear indications given by Taiwan and China that there was a dangerous virus spreading among the people. Yet si…

> Yet sick Chinese people were free to spread over the world for months with no response except down-playing it.

> When politicians knowingly lie to everyone's faces and take harmful actions against the people, pushing toward a more authoritarian society at every opportunity, how can you have any trust and not wonder about conspiracies?

Wouldn't pushing toward a more authoritarian society been not allowing sick Chinese people to travel?

Do you think it would have been OK to implement restrictions at the start of the pandemic, just not now?

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#265

Post by lovecg » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 6:24 PM UTC

mmmpop wrote: post #179

angelzen wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a a dozen and a half physicians in Congress. Their political affiliation may be surprising. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicians_in_the_United_State...

I knew it already, but wouldn't be surprised. One party appeals to emotion and hides the abject corruption. The other appeals more to reason (and for better or worse, Jesus) but is a bit more frank about their objectives and corruption.

This characterization is so alien to me. If you didn’t mention Jesus I would have no idea which is which. Wondering why you think that way?

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#266

Post by Jensson » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 6:24 PM UTC

ssully wrote: post #161

reducesuffering wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no matter what the government told people to do, there was going to be a contingent of people that would do the exact opposite because we are a stubborn and distrustful people. Americans are this way because the government continually gives them a reason to. The lying through the pandemic, the Iraq war, it just goes on.

Thank you for clarifying. This is why I don't know what the right answer is on the messaging. The US government, and nearly every government, has a history of lying to people. The other side of the coin though is that during those early months, and well into lock down, everything was up in the air about the virus, how it transmitted, and how to fight it. If I was in the position of how to convey that information to p…

> The US government, and nearly every government, has a history of lying to people.

This is something you should work to fix rather than just say things like "but the other party lies a bit more, so I also have to lie to defend myself! And people doesn't listen anyway so why does it matter if I lie?" etc. I see so much bullshit people use to defend their sides lies and deception here.

To me ensuring the government stops lying and deceiving the public is priority number 1, every other issue is second to that (as long as the country remains a democracy). This goes for your side, no matter which side it is, and no matter how much the other side lies and deceives, I'll condemn you if you lie and deceive. If you disagree then you are a part of the problem, and people like you are the reason the government can freely lie and deceive the public as they do. Governments only stops lying and deceiving when the public strongly reacts to it every time they do, ignoring it just because it helps your cause is how they can continue to lie and deceive.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#267

Post by rob_c » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 6:25 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #250

rob_c wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just US, I would say there's a large number of very well educated people even in well off countries who have a large amount of hesitation toward this mainly due to information handling and lack of transparency. (Yes there is a very vocal anti-vax nut job crowd, but frankly that will always be there, and is always different to those who object to policy decisions on moral grounds of their failings and the deaths t…

> "please take it to stop it killing others" Given that the vaccine doesn't work to stop transmissions, I'd reckon this was just another way for the "experts" to further loose trust with the public.

The experts selling it? The experts politically mandating the pisspoor sales contracts?

Or the experts who say a natural response to covid is better and that they'll be sued for saying this publically after the reddit "I know science mob" is through with them?...

Frankly it was about capacity. If enough get critically I'll we go into triage and kill oaps by prioritising treatment. The fact the vaccine is linked with less severe symptoms proves it would statistically save lives. The crowd insisting children get vaxed are just hypochondriacs or those who fail to understand statistics. (Or those refusing to share vaccines with the at risk in foreign countries who will almost certainly die compared to have to take time off school...)

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#268

Post by Anthony-G » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 6:25 PM UTC

fortuna86 wrote: post #159

8eye wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no disrespect but i know plenty of liberals who will not get the vaccine. the media turned it into a bi-partisan issue when in all actuality it was a government handling issue in which the rest were used as scapegoats. you remember that they gave themselves raises while the rest of us were told not to go into work. which obviously we are gonna listen if we believe that covid is as dangerous as the scientist were sayi…

> no disrespect but i know plenty of liberals who will not get the vaccine. Respectfully, those people have been anti-vax for a while now ( https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/what-do-le... ) and were part of the group that were unpersuadable. But leftist anti-vaxers aren't a majority of current COVID-19 anti-vaxers. Those are politically motivated groups.

I’m not sure why you’re being down-voted; elements of the counter-cultural left has been skeptical of science for decades.

The profit-motive is at odds with the nobler pursuit of science and companies like Monsanto, Exxon, Dow Jones are on the wrong side of history. Unfortunately, distrust of “big pharma” mutates into a suspicion of science in general – and the medical sector in particular. There also isn’t a catchy phrase to describe “big holistic/wellness/organic”.

When people (regardless of political persuasion) give up trying to understand the complexities of reality and instead, look for easy answers that appeal to them on an emotional level, they leave themselves vulnerable to all sorts of wacky ideas (many of which can be traced back to good old-fashioned anti-Semitism like George Soros and a shadowy cabal controlling the world).

George Monbiot recently published an article about this issue from a European perspective: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/22/leftwi...

Article from last year from an Australian perspective: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/05/wellne...

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#269

Post by lovecg » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 6:25 PM UTC

Levitz wrote: post #162

bastardoperator wrote: post #11

I agree with the sentiment of this article, but I'm noticing that some folks can't determine fact from fiction even when presented with data that supports the facts or makes them irrefutable. No amount of logic, facts, or transparency will be enough for these folks, and while I can appreciate a skeptic, some of these people are beyond basic help and need professional guidance.

What about the times in which there was plenty of such data, only for it to be false in the end, say, typical conspiracy turned true like MKULTRA or NSA? Bear with me, not every country has as many people doubting their government, the bottom line in my opinion is that public trust in the government has been eroded so much that this happens and these people are aware that the government is capable of spinning lies th…

Implicit in this argument is that Americans ever did trust their government. Has that actually ever been the case? I mean the whole country is founded on distrust of government as one of the principles.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#270

Post by betterunix2 » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 6:26 PM UTC

greenail wrote: post #134

betterunix2 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Censorship is not what causes large numbers of US citizens to refuse this vaccine. If the Republicans in leadership positions took this seriously from the start and did not go around casting doubt on vaccination far more people would get the vaccine. If the previous president had not politicized the response to COVID and had simply told his followers to do what the CDC says we would have many millions more people get…

You are assuming "they" trust the Republican leadership. this Gallup poll says only 12% of Americans trust congress. https://news.gallup.com/poll/352316/americans-confidence-maj... Lots of other interesting tidbits about trust in there...

No, the Gallup poll says 12% Americans say they trust Congress. People say they do not trust politicians, but the fact is that when politicians speak people listen. Politicians know this and that is why they always give soundbite-oriented remarks and lines of questioning in their various hearings and "debates."