Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths • Hacker News Board

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#251

Post by cloverich » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 6:16 PM UTC

lamontcg wrote: post #111

ISL wrote: post #41

From CDC's Crisis and Emergency Risk Communication (2018): 1. Be First 2. Be Right. 3. Be Credible. 4. Express Empathy. 5. Promote Action. 6. Show Respect. https://emergency.cdc.gov/cerc/ppt/CERC_Introduction.pdf https://emergency.cdc.gov/cerc/manual/index.asp

The big problem is what to do when "Be Right" is vague because information is poor and you're dealing with a society where black and white thinking is rampant. Combined with a largely complete lack of understanding of the actual messiness of the scientific method.

It's as easy as saying "X seems like the best bet, because Y, but we need more evidence (which we'll get via Z around time T) to be certain".

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#252

Post by philovivero » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 6:16 PM UTC

squeaky-clean wrote: post #178

tchalla wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But instead of just saying that, the message from the vast majority of public health officials (and media types like Sanjay Gupta) was that "masks don't work for the public". The CDC never really said that "masks don't work for public" [0]. Some other health officials and media did. Now, if you relied on the CDC for information everything would be more or less fine. The two things that make this situation worse is…

The link you shared is from March 2021 https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volum... From a now-deleted tweet from February 29 2020 https://web.archive.org/web/20200229123317/https://twitter.c... > @Surgeon_General > Seriously people- STOP BUYING MASKS! > They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus, but if healthcare providers can’t get them to care for sick patien…

Yep. The memory-holing is already going strong. In another year, all those "now-deleted" links won't work anymore, and everyone will keep claiming the government never lied, and you'll be a nutter if you claim the government ever said masks don't work. You'll be banned from all forms of conversation, and labeled "alt-right."

The techno-utopia is awesome.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#253

Post by ajkdhcb2 » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 6:16 PM UTC

ssully wrote: post #161

reducesuffering wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no matter what the government told people to do, there was going to be a contingent of people that would do the exact opposite because we are a stubborn and distrustful people. Americans are this way because the government continually gives them a reason to. The lying through the pandemic, the Iraq war, it just goes on.

Thank you for clarifying. This is why I don't know what the right answer is on the messaging. The US government, and nearly every government, has a history of lying to people. The other side of the coin though is that during those early months, and well into lock down, everything was up in the air about the virus, how it transmitted, and how to fight it. If I was in the position of how to convey that information to p…

I've disagreed with the general global response at essentially every step. I think any reasonable person would have done better, and get the feeling that there are likely ulterior motives and disgraceful politicised actions to explain how bad the response was.

In particular, in the beginning there were very clear indications given by Taiwan and China that there was a dangerous virus spreading among the people. Yet sick Chinese people were free to spread over the world for months with no response except down-playing it. They practiced the opposite of the precautionary principle and horrendous risk management.

When politicians knowingly lie to everyone's faces and take harmful actions against the people, pushing toward a more authoritarian society at every opportunity, how can you have any trust and not wonder about conspiracies?

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#254

Post by BitwiseFool » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 6:16 PM UTC

valeness wrote: post #206

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion the biggest example of this was the poor mask guidance early on in the pandemic that was subsequently reversed. Zeynep Tufekci had a very good piece in the NYT on this: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-... The real fear was that there would be a run on masks by the public, making them unavailable for hospital use. Also, at the time, there wasn't clear evidence of the effective…

(speaking generally here at those I've seen share the same rage, not accusing you directly) I just cannot wrap my head around being so upset that a public official lied you're willing to sever friendships, familial ties, and sacrifice your career because you refuse to follow sane and frankly manageable guidelines to prevent the spread of COVID-19. It's not even that the messaging is currently or has been conflicting…

>"because you refuse to follow sane and frankly manageable guidelines to prevent the spread of COVID-19."

As a point of order we can't treat "manageable guidelines" as a monolith as there have been a ton of "guidelines" and rules imposed over the last three years that were dubious, farcical, or overly intrusive. Like supermarkets cordoning off the greeting card aisle because social gatherings like parties were prohibited. Or gyms being told not to play music above a certain BPM because more intense exercise could enable Covid to spread more easily [1]. Going to the beach alone can get you arrested, but standing in a crowded Costco is acceptable. And so on. There's a lot more to the resentment and outrage than people simply being upset at the inconvenience of wearing a mask.

Plenty of small business owners and restaurateurs had their livelihoods destroyed because the government went back and forth on restrictions and enforcement.

[1] South Korea to ban music over 120bpm in gyms, in response to Covid spike : www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20210712000804

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#255

Post by vmception » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 6:17 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #82

colordrops wrote: post #10

The article is discussing the media and government being intentionally vague or even misinformative because they don't trust the public, but it backfires and causes more distrust. The flip side that wasn't discussed is the belittling and censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives, which engendered even more distrust. Their strategy of information control backfired, and they doubled down. Now we've got…

In my opinion the biggest example of this was the poor mask guidance early on in the pandemic that was subsequently reversed. Zeynep Tufekci had a very good piece in the NYT on this: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-... The real fear was that there would be a run on masks by the public, making them unavailable for hospital use. Also, at the time, there wasn't clear evidence of the effective…

Ha thats just the tip of the iceberg!

The medical professional community still continues to blunder here!

Exhibit A:

“Ah! Its affecting young people!”

Like the 1918 flu?

“What no, people in their 50s and 60s!”

The public doesnt call this young by any colloquial definition, so why would you say that the one time the public needs communication from you?

Exhibit B:

“Let’s reduce potential strain on ICUs!”

yeah sure I’ll stay home for that and put dating on hold during the prime of my life for a bit

“Let’s make sure nobody gets COVID ever!”

Ehhhhhh …. and now mitigation detractors all have ammunition to ignore every mitigation measure because it doesnt work 100%

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#256

Post by kickout » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 6:18 PM UTC

valeness wrote: post #216

EamonnMR wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really think this will go down as The Big Mistake that lost the public's trust in the US and made compliance for every subsequent measure difficult to sell, and opened the door to nutters.

This is a pretty privileged viewpoint imo. This one small thing lost the public's trust? Not the fact that cops used to pull me over for no reason because I lived in a poor neighborhood? Not the fact that my family member's lives were ruined because of tiny drug-related infractions? Not the fact that we went on a pointless 20+ year war for no reason (just the one within my lifetime)? Really. Wearing a mask is the bre…

Yo, chill with the assumptions. Nothing about this article/discussion has to do with your comment.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#257

Post by speedybird » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 6:18 PM UTC

tchalla wrote: post #117

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion the biggest example of this was the poor mask guidance early on in the pandemic that was subsequently reversed. Zeynep Tufekci had a very good piece in the NYT on this: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-... The real fear was that there would be a run on masks by the public, making them unavailable for hospital use. Also, at the time, there wasn't clear evidence of the effective…

> But instead of just saying that, the message from the vast majority of public health officials (and media types like Sanjay Gupta) was that "masks don't work for the public". The CDC never really said that "masks don't work for public" [0]. Some other health officials and media did. Now, if you relied on the CDC for information everything would be more or less fine. The two things that make this situation worse is…

Maybe you really believe this, but to me it comes across as gas lighting. I know what I remember, all the blabbing heads on the media were telling us to stop buying masks because they won't help us. Maybe you earnestly believe otherwise, but I think this line of argumentation will never be accepted by the vax-avoident. On the contrary, it probably contributes to their perception that they are still being lied to, and consequently, will only strengthen their resolve.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#258

Post by nokcha » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 6:19 PM UTC

teh_infallible wrote: post #180

Mikeb85 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With how governments have behaved I absolutely understand why people would distrust them and to be honest, I have absolutely zero trust in government right now too. They put politics and driving wedges between people to further entrench their positions (a bunch of provinces and our feds all called snap elections during Covid) over honesty and people. Even now instead of trying to assuage the fears of the vaccine hesi…

Ironically, those PHDs you trust are the most hesitant

That study turned out to be based on unreliable self-reported education level:

https://coronavirus.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-PhDs-are-the-m...

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#259

Post by bjt2n3904 » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 6:19 PM UTC

ISL wrote: post #41

From CDC's Crisis and Emergency Risk Communication (2018): 1. Be First 2. Be Right. 3. Be Credible. 4. Express Empathy. 5. Promote Action. 6. Show Respect. https://emergency.cdc.gov/cerc/ppt/CERC_Introduction.pdf https://emergency.cdc.gov/cerc/manual/index.asp

So... Are those listed in order of importance?

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#260

Post by AzzieElbab » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 6:19 PM UTC

dehrmann wrote: post #55

Fauci (and the CDC) lying about masks out of fear it would cause a shortage for healthcare providers burnt a lot of trust quickly. It probably helped the US get into the polarized situation it's in now.

Hospitals dont buy masks at COSCO stores and neither does the gov.