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Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

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Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#111

Post by lamontcg »

ISL wrote: post #41

From CDC's Crisis and Emergency Risk Communication (2018): 1. Be First 2. Be Right. 3. Be Credible. 4. Express Empathy. 5. Promote Action. 6. Show Respect. https://emergency.cdc.gov/cerc/ppt/CERC_Introduction.pdf https://emergency.cdc.gov/cerc/manual/index.asp

The big problem is what to do when "Be Right" is vague because information is poor and you're dealing with a society where black and white thinking is rampant. Combined with a largely complete lack of understanding of the actual messiness of the scientific method.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#112

Post by lolsal »

calebm wrote: post #50
ISL wrote: post #41

From CDC's Crisis and Emergency Risk Communication (2018): 1. Be First 2. Be Right. 3. Be Credible. 4. Express Empathy. 5. Promote Action. 6. Show Respect. https://emergency.cdc.gov/cerc/ppt/CERC_Introduction.pdf https://emergency.cdc.gov/cerc/manual/index.asp

There is an inherent trade-off between being first and being right.

They are not exclusive.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#113

Post by ssully »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #82
colordrops wrote: post #10

The article is discussing the media and government being intentionally vague or even misinformative because they don't trust the public, but it backfires and causes more distrust. The flip side that wasn't discussed is the belittling and censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives, which engendered even more distrust. Their strategy of information control backfired, and they doubled down. Now we've got…

In my opinion the biggest example of this was the poor mask guidance early on in the pandemic that was subsequently reversed. Zeynep Tufekci had a very good piece in the NYT on this: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-... The real fear was that there would be a run on masks by the public, making them unavailable for hospital use. Also, at the time, there wasn't clear evidence of the effective…

I think it's also worth pointing out that even with them saying masks aren't effective for the public, there was still a run on masks. I don't have the exact date, but when I looked for n95's at my local hardware store in March 2020, they were all gone and this was definitely before we were told to wear masks. And soon after we started getting stories about hospitals running low on PPE.

I am not saying what the right messaging move was/would have been. But all I do know is that no matter what, masks were going to get run on. I also know that, at least from an American perspective, no matter what the government told people to do, there was going to be a contingent of people that would do the exact opposite because we are a stubborn and distrustful people.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#114

Post by jmeister »

betterunix2 wrote: post #106
colordrops wrote: post #10

The article is discussing the media and government being intentionally vague or even misinformative because they don't trust the public, but it backfires and causes more distrust. The flip side that wasn't discussed is the belittling and censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives, which engendered even more distrust. Their strategy of information control backfired, and they doubled down. Now we've got…

Censorship is not what causes large numbers of US citizens to refuse this vaccine. If the Republicans in leadership positions took this seriously from the start and did not go around casting doubt on vaccination far more people would get the vaccine. If the previous president had not politicized the response to COVID and had simply told his followers to do what the CDC says we would have many millions more people get…

Kamala Harris is on record(last summer) saying she wouldn’t take the vaccine if Trump told her to take it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dAjCeMuXR0

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#115

Post by jnorthrop »

mmmpop wrote: post #38
bastardoperator wrote: post #11

I agree with the sentiment of this article, but I'm noticing that some folks can't determine fact from fiction even when presented with data that supports the facts or makes them irrefutable. No amount of logic, facts, or transparency will be enough for these folks, and while I can appreciate a skeptic, some of these people are beyond basic help and need professional guidance.

It feels like a game of political chicken to me. Like, "if you won't trust the voting public enough to give them the whole truth and instead treat them like blubbering fools, how can you--with a straight face--pretend that their ability to pick leaders or vote on actual issues is a correct way to run a country?" So instead of compliance, they'll bring the whole damn thing down in protest. I don't think the plurality…

> If you won't trust the voting public enough to give them the whole truth and instead treat them like blubbering fools, how can you--with a straight face--pretend that their ability to pick leaders or vote on actual issues is a correct way to run a country?

Mr. Politician replies, "I trust the individuals that voted for me. They're smart. Its the public in general that can't be trusted."

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#116

Post by unanswered »

Ensorceled wrote: post #34
sto_hristo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such pandemics don't start every other year. Last great one was 100 years ago. So i wouldn't worry at all for the "winners", there's plenty of time for generations to refresh. Worry about government's inability to learn and improve based on past mistakes, also complacency. It's not hard to imagine 100 years from now, popular presidential guy spearheading the next great pandemic, calming the subjects down with the gre…

The vaccine hesitancy will impact vaccines for HPV, measles, HEP B, etc. etc. for generations.

Do you have any evidence that ineffective gene therapy hesitancy is correlated with effective vaccine hesitancy?

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#117

Post by tchalla »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #82
colordrops wrote: post #10

The article is discussing the media and government being intentionally vague or even misinformative because they don't trust the public, but it backfires and causes more distrust. The flip side that wasn't discussed is the belittling and censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives, which engendered even more distrust. Their strategy of information control backfired, and they doubled down. Now we've got…

In my opinion the biggest example of this was the poor mask guidance early on in the pandemic that was subsequently reversed. Zeynep Tufekci had a very good piece in the NYT on this: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-... The real fear was that there would be a run on masks by the public, making them unavailable for hospital use. Also, at the time, there wasn't clear evidence of the effective…

> But instead of just saying that, the message from the vast majority of public health officials (and media types like Sanjay Gupta) was that "masks don't work for the public".

The CDC never really said that "masks don't work for public" [0]. Some other health officials and media did. Now, if you relied on the CDC for information everything would be more or less fine. The two things that make this situation worse is - (1) An ever-changing landscape of information and (2) "Whom to listen to?" problem. We are not good at (1) itself, because we are terrible at updating our priors. Then, you throw in (2) in the mix and there's mass confusion.

Zeynep Tufkeci can say that "oh tell the truth" but there's no guarantee that her version of communication would play better than what we have.

[0] https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7010e3.htm

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#118

Post by reducesuffering »

ssully wrote: post #113
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion the biggest example of this was the poor mask guidance early on in the pandemic that was subsequently reversed. Zeynep Tufekci had a very good piece in the NYT on this: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-... The real fear was that there would be a run on masks by the public, making them unavailable for hospital use. Also, at the time, there wasn't clear evidence of the effective…

I think it's also worth pointing out that even with them saying masks aren't effective for the public, there was still a run on masks. I don't have the exact date, but when I looked for n95's at my local hardware store in March 2020, they were all gone and this was definitely before we were told to wear masks. And soon after we started getting stories about hospitals running low on PPE. I am not saying what the right…

> no matter what the government told people to do, there was going to be a contingent of people that would do the exact opposite because we are a stubborn and distrustful people.

Americans are this way because the government continually gives them a reason to. The lying through the pandemic, the Iraq war, it just goes on.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#119

Post by zionic »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #91
colordrops wrote: post #10

The article is discussing the media and government being intentionally vague or even misinformative because they don't trust the public, but it backfires and causes more distrust. The flip side that wasn't discussed is the belittling and censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives, which engendered even more distrust. Their strategy of information control backfired, and they doubled down. Now we've got…

With how governments have behaved I absolutely understand why people would distrust them and to be honest, I have absolutely zero trust in government right now too. They put politics and driving wedges between people to further entrench their positions (a bunch of provinces and our feds all called snap elections during Covid) over honesty and people. Even now instead of trying to assuage the fears of the vaccine hesi…

>They put politics and driving wedges between people to further entrench their positions

The current vice president of the united states when on tv in 2020 telling the world she wouldn't take "trumps rushed vaccine".

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#120

Post by andrewclunn »

neogodless wrote: post #64
WhisperingShiba wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And thats a good thing too. Don't reward poor behavior with compliance.

It's trivially easy to understand that getting a vaccine that benefits you, as well as the people around you, is good for the people around you, much more so than it is good for someone you're protesting against. And not getting the vaccine is potentially bad for you, and those around you, much more so than it is bad for anyone you're protesting against. The vaccine helps your body fight the virus, and reduce the spr…

That's just the thing though, isn't it. Is the vaccine good for you and the people around you? Since we know asymptomatic carriers are a thing, does getting the vaccine protect those around you? Are you even able to get reliable reporting on the side effects (of various shots) and what groups are likely to be at risk for them?

Assuming a disagreement about reality is a disagreement about values is a great way to straw man without knowing it.

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