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Australians ‘complacent’ to rapid growth in digital surveillance

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Re: Australians ‘complacent’ to rapid growth in digital surveillance

#181

Post by Tomis02 »

0xy wrote: post #174
Tomis02 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To summarise what you're saying: "the government did some things wrong while fighting COVID". Sure, I don't disagree. That said, are bad government policies worse than the murder of civilians? I'll let you guess which one is more likely to make me go out and protest. Of course I'll ridicule people who call Australia an authoritarian state over the suboptimal handling of a public health problem. First of all because I…

>Only permanent residents are not allowed to leave without a permit Must be outdated information, it was changed recently. https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/06/austr... >The Australian government has quietly expanded its ban on Australian citizens leaving the country to include people who are ordinarily residents in another country, meaning that even people who live overseas may not be allowed to le…

As far as I know, any foreign citizen can leave. If they are a permanent resident, they can either apply for a permit or drop their visa - it's generally much easier to leave than to come back. Your quote is slightly ambiguous but I assume it refers to Australian citizens who are residents of other countries. The article you linked only talks about Australian citizens as far as I can tell. FWI I upvoted your original comment to compensate for the downvotes.

Re: Australians ‘complacent’ to rapid growth in digital surveillance

#182

Post by selcuka »

6nf wrote: post #56
ntSean wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Melbourne, the most locked down city in the world. We have substantially lower death rates than Florida, which has a comparable population. Florida: 3,600,000 covid cases 56,667 deaths Melbourne: 54,470 covid cases 913 deaths This remains true for the rest of Australia. Unfortunately, we are in a remarkable position compared to many parts of the world.

Florida population is 21 million, Australia is 26 million. AUD 300 billion to save 70,000 lives, that's 4 million dollars per life saved. The median covid death is 85 years old. We spent 4 million dollars to save one 85 year old person for a few more years.

The whole calculation is wrong, but even if it was correct, I would still be amazed by the fact that you think $4m is too much to get one person live for a few more years.

Re: Australians ‘complacent’ to rapid growth in digital surveillance

#183

Post by psychlops »

BuyMyBitcoins wrote: post #103
hresvelgr wrote: post #21

To anyone not from Australia or not across this, currently federal law enforcement can hack online accounts, remove, add, or modify data. They still need a warrant but can hack accounts in advance of a warrant, provided they have "reasonable suspicion" that the person they are hacking is committing a crime. There is also no recourse if the warrant is denied and they have already hacked the accounts of the person in s…

Really makes you wonder what the end-goal actually is for these craven politicians.

Intel for re-election for starters.

Re: Australians ‘complacent’ to rapid growth in digital surveillance

#184

Post by TapWaterBandit »

paranoidrobot wrote: post #109
TapWaterBandit wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police going door to door in NSW/VIC investigating protestors against lockdowns months after they have occurred. I assume you will support similar surveillance of BLM protestors? NSW: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/09/23/australia... VIC: https://twitter.com/sullydish/status/1447314509949984768

The NSW one it's not clear from the context whether that person was at a protest. The second one it's pretty clear they were. I don't know which protests they were, but a number of anti-lockdown/vaccine protests were violent, which is likely the reason the police were investigating. That it's months later is almost certainly because police have been going through a shitload of leads. The same thing is happening in th…

Attempting to frame the lockdown protests as being remotely comparable to the US capitol attack is a ridiculous false equivalency.

The events aren't remotely comparable in terms of background, the events themselves, or what led to the events. If you can't see the difference between protests against state-wide lockdowns including curfews, restrictions on freedom of association, travel bans, etc and a group of people rioting to contest an election result all it shows is that you are so biased to the point that your opinion isn't worth considering in a serious discussion about events in Australia relating to the response to the pandemic.

There are potential defences of Australia's response (although they are increasingly seen as apologetic at best, or an outright defence of human rights abuses at worst) but saying the protests are in any way similar to the US capitol attack is not one of them.

Re: Australians ‘complacent’ to rapid growth in digital surveillance

#185

Post by caf »

0xy wrote: post #121
caf wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We absolutely can blame the LNP, because they are the Goverment, they draft the laws, they introduce them as Government bills in the parliament, they put them on the notice paper, they determine the sitting schedule that allows them to be debated and passed, they have the majority on the House committees that scrutinise them and they direct the Governor-General to provide royal assent. They also are the the Ministers…

How is one party responsible for a bipartisan bill? The opposition vehemently support surveillance laws and have voted for them repeatedly.

It wasn't a "bipartisan bill". The Opposition had zero input - they moved amendments that were rejected by the Government.

I've explained how the LNP is responsible for it - it was their bill, written by them and passed through a process they control.

Make no mistake, they had the numbers to pass it regardless of what the Opposition did on the floor. The Opposition's vote either way was merely symbolic - and frankly I find it hard to fault them for making the cynical political calculation that their future political chances could only be hindered by a pointless vote against it.

Re: Australians ‘complacent’ to rapid growth in digital surveillance

#186

Post by psychlops »

taitems wrote: post #166
psychlops wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sure the primary conversation isn't about now, but the future and more about what your kids inherit. I don't think the 50x metric will stand the test of time, but wish you all the best.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean but the Florida 50x metric not standing the test of time? Even if you were to look at it on a national level, the US death rate per million is 2,142, the Australian death rate per million is... 56. That's a 38x rate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_death_rates_...

Sorry, I wasn't disagreeing with your numbers. I mean that the procedures Australia implemented slowed the virus, but that inevitably Covid will go through the country and there will be a surge. Be it in breakthrough cases like Israel or the unvaccinated.

Re: Australians ‘complacent’ to rapid growth in digital surveillance

#187

Post by grecy »

prawn wrote: post #127
grecy wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically, Australians are currently not even permitted to leave the country!

I know of a family who moved to the US within the last 12 months. Has that been a more recent change that would've prevented them leaving at all?

Australians currently have to be granted an "exemption" to leave the country [1]. Moving to a new country permanently (with proof) qualifies, but just going on a holiday does not.

[1] https://covid19.homeaffairs.gov.au/leaving-australia

(quote from that link: "Australia’s borders are currently closed and international travel from Australia remains strictly controlled" )

Re: Australians ‘complacent’ to rapid growth in digital surveillance

#188

Post by justinmcp »

taitems wrote: post #64

Cries of "Tyranny!" and "Give me liberty or give me death" are imported concepts that don't resonate quite as well here in Australia. The pearl clutching "Save Australia" protests were good for a chuckle[1], but are also accompanied by people advocating we rise up and murder our police[2]? When Florida has 50x the per capita death rate than that of Australia, it's pretty clear that the US chose liberty AND death[3].…

> Cries of "Tyranny!" and "Give me liberty or give me death" are imported concepts that don't resonate quite as well here in Australia.

Maybe literally with those sayings, but up until sometime in the 80s, "its a free country" was a common refrain, which was rooted in the culture and expectations of the people.

Something changed though.

Re: Australians ‘complacent’ to rapid growth in digital surveillance

#189

Post by grecy »

clouddrover wrote: post #95
grecy wrote: post #23

I've just returned to Australia after 15 years living all around the world, and I find it all fascinating and I have a bit of perspective on this. The Australian media have a very strong influence on people's lives - they daily create some uproar or other that people get addicted to, wound up about, and then forget. Two weeks ago it was the nuclear sub deal with USA (and dropping France), then it was some state leade…

> My Dad immediately jumped to the conclusion that encrypted communications the police can't read is obviously a bad thing. Then I think the problem here is your dad, not the media. Your dad's lack of clear thinking or otherwise is his responsibility. You can't run around in square circles claiming that it's all the media's fault for your dad's supposed wrongthink. There are two possibilities: 1. Your dad is a dumb,…

I used my Dad more as an example of how "the average Australian" thinks and is processing all of this, not really to focus on him alone.

He was a High school Maths/Science teacher for 40 years, and I'd generally consider him to be very thoughtful, intelligent and good with reasoning.

He has been exposed solely to Australian media for essentially his entire life - he lives on an island that is very far away from the big wide world, and his thinking on topics like this reflects what I consider to be "The average Australian", which is why Australians seem "complacent" as the title says.

Re: Australians ‘complacent’ to rapid growth in digital surveillance

#190

Post by prawn »

grecy wrote: post #187
prawn wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know of a family who moved to the US within the last 12 months. Has that been a more recent change that would've prevented them leaving at all?

Australians currently have to be granted an "exemption" to leave the country [1]. Moving to a new country permanently (with proof) qualifies, but just going on a holiday does not. [1] https://covid19.homeaffairs.gov.au/leaving-australia (quote from that link: "Australia’s borders are currently closed and international travel from Australia remains strictly controlled" )

I was just getting at the distinction that it was a blanket rule. Slum it with the rest of us. You'll get back on the road eventually! ;)

Like you, I make money from travel, but difference is being stuck in AU suits me because it's where I have my contacts!

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