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China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

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Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#221

Post by bordercases »

aww_dang wrote: post #32
Supermancho wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think you would do well to distinguish between the CCP and China the nation. Why is that? Granted, the people of China individually work within the gaps of totalitarian control. Ok. The country of (historic and modern) China is whatever the CCP leadership dictates.

Individuals are not the collective. Not only is it inaccurate as a generalization, but it personifies the collective. A nation state is an abstract concept. Politicians and leaders act. Individuals may agree or disagree. Abstractions have no agency. This is most apparent for me in the false narrative of, "China lifted a billion people out of poverty". Unpack that one. This advancement is relative to a largely agraria…

Most of the "nuance" here is screened off by the questions, "do individuals in China act in China's interests as articulated by the CCP or not?", and "would they ever do otherwise if not located in China or under the influence of China's laws?"

For the former, I don't think the numbers overall add up to the relevance of the distinction you're making here, even if it's just the CCP being strict and wielding a lot of domestic power.

For the latter, it's a big hypothetical but Chinese influence overseas through NGOs and banking and students doing tech-transfer/brain drain etc also works in disfavour of it being true in the large, except for maybe Hong Kongers and Taiwanese with no strong mainland connections.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#222

Post by [deleted] »

epgui wrote: post #104

(Disclaimer: I'm a franco-Canadian of mixed European descent.) This article doesn't give China a great image, sure. I can think of a million criticisms to levy against China. However, I feel like a lot of the comments aren't just criticizing China, they seem to be outright anti-China. I wonder if, in the grand scheme of things, Americans/Westerners might be feeling threatened by the shift in power. I wonder if Americ…

[deleted]

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#223

Post by KerrickStaley »

andyxor wrote: post #217
FatalLogic wrote: post #5

Analysis and explanation (from 2020, but the issues are unchanged): https://qz.com/1908836/china-blocks-wikimedia-from-un-agency... Creative Commons comment on the most recent blocking: "As in 2020, China’s statement falsely suggested that the Wikimedia Foundation was spreading disinformation via the independent, volunteer-led Wikimedia Taiwan chapter"[0] [0] https://creativecommons.org/2021/10/06/creative-commons-re…

not a fan of China government but in this case I tend to believe them, I've seen Wikipedia volunteers spread actual disinformation in a concerted effort especially on politically charged topics.

That's not what's happening here though. China has for years put enormous effort into promoting its worldview on the China/Taiwan issue in every way it can, even though that worldview contradicts the facts on the ground. Taiwan is de-facto an independent country with its own government and military sovereignty, and the majority of citizens of Taiwan are happy with that arrangement.

China saying that Wikipedia Taiwan is spreading misinformation is just an effort to warp reality to fit China's alternate-universe version of the facts.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#224

Post by bordercases »

int_19h wrote: post #92
Supermancho wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Individuals are not the collective. Not only is it inaccurate as a generalization, but it personifies the collective. A nation state is an abstract concept. A nation state (which is a political organization) is the way that populations interact on the political stage. A nation state presents representatives which uniformly have a manner of control over the population and the forces (eg economic and/or social and/or…

A nation-state is not the way that populations interact on the political stage, but rather the way the elites that rule those populations do. You're correct in that the elites are who defines what the "nation-state of China" is, but that doesn't mean that they speak for the "people of China". (It should be noted that this also goes for the vast majority of nation-states.)

This will be false to whatever extent the nation-state can directly influence the behaviour of the population, making the population an apparatus of the state. And this will be true as long as the government can simultaneously be seen as just or powerful, while additionally having the government expand their influence to punish people who don't believe in its justice or power.

Both these conditions are true in China. The perception of legitimacy in the government is the only variable that can vary freely enough to contradict the claim that individuals are distinguishable from the state. However, this perception can be controlled if you can manipulate the livelihood of the individuals to stay in line, by e.g. monopolizing payment, communication, and reputation. So guess what.

China's influence on its population directly has only been growing and the way it yields the influence of its citizens to grow power in the West (without resorting to kinetic violence, leaving lawfare/financial warfare/demographic warfare/tech-transfer/propaganda/cabinet stacking) has only become more apparent.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#225

Post by hilbert42 »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #45
viktorcode wrote: post #23

Nobody seems to notice that it should not matter at all how accurate exactly the information Wikimedia contains, because it has no relation to the role they can fulfil at WIPO. China blocks the application, citing irrelevant info. Then other countries dismiss those irrelevant accusations as false. It seems the future of WIPO is to become irrelevant UN body.

> It seems the future of WIPO is to become irrelevant UN body. I certainly hope so!

I can't agree more.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#226

Post by age_of_stone »

jhedwards wrote: post #140
Fricken wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No difference really. Domestic approval ratings for the CCP are through the roof. https://www.npr.org/2020/09/23/913650298/as-u-s-views-of-chi...

While I wouldn't rule out that this is true, it's difficult to trust numbers like that in China since people are so afraid to voice their true opinion. When I lived in China I learned that it was a basic rule of society that you do not express opinions about the government with anyone except for your closest friends, and even then it is extremely rare. It's no surprise that this is the case given historical events su…

more likely, you were treated as foreigner that no one really wanted to talk about government when you were present.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#227

Post by Blikkentrekker »

coldacid wrote: post #184
FridayoLeary wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They will be joining a long list of irrelevant UN bodies...

Such as the United Nations.

I think people expect the U.N. to be an advocate for their visions of the world.

The U.N.'s primary purpose is simply to minimize the occurrence of war, especially nuclear war, not to spread any particular political ideology across the world such as “freedom and democracy”.

In this particular case it allows China a conduit to achieve what it wants to without firing nuclear missiles.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#228

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

wolverine876 wrote: post #141
Fricken wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are the gullible and ignorant victim of western anti-china propaganda. Many independent studies have been done. They all show very high approval ratings. Higher now, after the pandemic.

The Chinese people who do have free speech, in Taiwan, and did, in Hong Kong, certainly don't/didn't like the CCP much. Perhaps that's why the CCP felt the need to shut down freedom in Hong Kong - too much criticism. If the CCP is so popular, why not have free speech and elections?

The answer here appears to be simple. Because elections and free speech are aspects of the system that by design introduce certain level of instability, but also a way to channel population frustration thus preventing having to resort to violence.

CCP chose stability of system above all else.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#229

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

Hnrobert42 wrote: post #199
epgui wrote: post #104

(Disclaimer: I'm a franco-Canadian of mixed European descent.) This article doesn't give China a great image, sure. I can think of a million criticisms to levy against China. However, I feel like a lot of the comments aren't just criticizing China, they seem to be outright anti-China. I wonder if, in the grand scheme of things, Americans/Westerners might be feeling threatened by the shift in power. I wonder if Americ…

Does the CCP get much right?

It is a complicated question. If you look at the results, China is now the ascending/aspiring world power. And they got here in how much time? From that perspective, they got a lot right. Worse, US planners got a lot wrong.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#230

Post by Blikkentrekker »

1ris wrote: post #24
beaunative wrote: post #15

I don't think China has grudge against Wikimedia specifically, the official policy of theirs has always been that if you recognize Taiwan, you are no friend of them. I don't think the Chinese delegate there cares about free knowledge, further it's their job literally to say no to Taiwan recongition anywhere on earth. So why should we be surprised that China does this when the United States federal government don't ca…

First of all, no private organisation can "recognize" a state. That is a privilege for states. Private organisations can only boycott (non-)states by not doing any business with said (non-)citizens. Why in the world Wikimedia do that, and how? Second, this policy by china is the problem. Not the lack of obedience by the rest of the world.

> First of all, no private organisation can "recognize" a state. That is a privilege for states. Private organisations can only boycott (non-)states by not doing any business with said (non-)citizens. Why in the world Wikimedia do that, and how?

You apparently do not recognize that a private organization can recognize a state; I do.

What powerful entitites such as states recognize and not recognize is already quite meaningless; it is certainly meaningless what you and I do or do not recognize.

“Recognition” very often is unimpactful jabber of semantics. — Many of the states hat do not recognize Taiwan have business relations with it outside of the P.R.C. regardless.

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