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China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

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Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#31

Post by refenestrator »

1ris wrote: post #24
beaunative wrote: post #15

I don't think China has grudge against Wikimedia specifically, the official policy of theirs has always been that if you recognize Taiwan, you are no friend of them. I don't think the Chinese delegate there cares about free knowledge, further it's their job literally to say no to Taiwan recongition anywhere on earth. So why should we be surprised that China does this when the United States federal government don't ca…

First of all, no private organisation can "recognize" a state. That is a privilege for states. Private organisations can only boycott (non-)states by not doing any business with said (non-)citizens. Why in the world Wikimedia do that, and how? Second, this policy by china is the problem. Not the lack of obedience by the rest of the world.

They should be a lot less aggressive and assertive about it, but, given the stakes nd the history I think the polite fiction is perfectly fine compared to lots of alternatives.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#32

Post by aww_dang »

Supermancho wrote: post #25
aww_dang wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wikipedia has always felt like a walled garden for certain topics. The crowd sourcing is a nice window dressing for an end product which can be highly partisan where it matters. That said, I think you would do well to distinguish between the CCP and China the nation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Per...

> I think you would do well to distinguish between the CCP and China the nation. Why is that? Granted, the people of China individually work within the gaps of totalitarian control. Ok. The country of (historic and modern) China is whatever the CCP leadership dictates.

Individuals are not the collective. Not only is it inaccurate as a generalization, but it personifies the collective. A nation state is an abstract concept. Politicians and leaders act. Individuals may agree or disagree. Abstractions have no agency.

This is most apparent for me in the false narrative of, "China lifted a billion people out of poverty".

Unpack that one. This advancement is relative to a largely agrarian society which was then subjected to the Great Leap Forward. Loosening your grip on the victim's neck isn't the same as performing the Heimlich maneuver.

China, the nation advanced economically. Business people worked together to develop an economy. These individuals are the real heroes, not the state. They prevailed despite government regulations, corruption and central planning. Going back to the propaganda narrative, how much better off would the people of China be if they were not under the yoke of the CCP?

From there it is not only easy to see how this narrative is inaccurate, but a toxic mistruth in service of authoritarians. The distinction is important.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2012-mapping-chinas-red-n...

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#33

Post by [deleted] »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #30
dirtyid wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically. PRC blocks UN participation of any organization that doesn't follow official UN interpretation of One China. As how things should be. China's UN flexes last few years doing a good job demonstrating "the world" is more than the west. Some folks have a hard time coping with pacing non-white super power that represents 20% of the global population successfully lobbying for their own interests. Conveniently lo…

> a hard time coping with pacing non-white super power One, regional power. Emerging superpower. But still lacking long-distance force projection capability. Two, share of global population doesn’t give one the right to invade and subjugate a free population. Taiwan isn’t China. It doesn’t want to be China. The world has a definite interest in protecting it.

[deleted]

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#34

Post by adventured »

fouric wrote: post #22
tuberelay wrote: post #4

China corrupts any global organization it touches.

I can think of the WHO, John Cena's Twitter apology, Blizzard, the NBA, and Apple, but what else is there?

Hollywood - the movie industry more broadly - is also mostly gone now. They're all cowards, terrified of doing or saying anything critical of China (for exactly the same reason the NBA is, fear of losing the China market). They should be at the forefront of being critical of an illiberal superpower, given their supposed ideological leanings as an industry. Instead they're hiding in the back of the room, they'll be the last to say anything.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#35

Post by garmaine »

refenestrator wrote: post #31
1ris wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, no private organisation can "recognize" a state. That is a privilege for states. Private organisations can only boycott (non-)states by not doing any business with said (non-)citizens. Why in the world Wikimedia do that, and how? Second, this policy by china is the problem. Not the lack of obedience by the rest of the world.

They should be a lot less aggressive and assertive about it, but, given the stakes nd the history I think the polite fiction is perfectly fine compared to lots of alternatives.

It is not a polite fiction.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#36

Post by Ericson2314 »

1ris wrote: post #24
beaunative wrote: post #15

I don't think China has grudge against Wikimedia specifically, the official policy of theirs has always been that if you recognize Taiwan, you are no friend of them. I don't think the Chinese delegate there cares about free knowledge, further it's their job literally to say no to Taiwan recongition anywhere on earth. So why should we be surprised that China does this when the United States federal government don't ca…

First of all, no private organisation can "recognize" a state. That is a privilege for states. Private organisations can only boycott (non-)states by not doing any business with said (non-)citizens. Why in the world Wikimedia do that, and how? Second, this policy by china is the problem. Not the lack of obedience by the rest of the world.

I have 0 clue why in the 1970s we didn't make it a de jure situation, like with Korea, like with Vietnam.

China wanted the UN seat, right? Would they really turn that down because the US insisted on saying some shit about Taiwan? When they were kinda broke and caught between us and Soviets? Did the KMT really not want to give up "Republic of China", even if it meant being relegated to non-country status? Does it even matter what they think, being a subordinate dictatorship at that point?

This seems like entirely a problem of the US's creation.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#37

Post by systemvoltage »

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #17
cscurmudgeon wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here you go: https://www.wsj.com/articles/get-ready-for-the-struggle-sess... You are welcome. Edit: Parent comment edited. See that.

Given that the OP was has been flagged into oblivion, I can only guess they were talking about parallelism between the Cultural Revolution in China and the cultural revolution happening right now in the USA and spilling all over several Western countries. One crucial difference is that in the West, the worst that can happen to you is getting fired. In Communist China, thousand were murdered in cruel ways. This hasn't…

> One crucial difference is that in the West, the worst that can happen to you is getting fired. In Communist China, thousand were murdered in cruel ways.

Getting fired, losing sole source of income, contemplating suicide and spiraling into depression are all issues that liberals fight to eradicate.

I would’nt wish this to the worst enemies, even if they’re racist or bigoted or whatever. We have laws and criminal justice system.

Sounds cruel and despicable.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#38

Post by perihelions »

Of course Wikimedia won't take any action to appease this totalitarian nonsense. But, most for-profit companies do exactly that. When was the last time any Hollywood movie or mainstream entertainment mentioned Taiwanese conflict? When do you last remember seeing "Free Tibet"? Or any Tibet? Chinese film censors can apply billions of dollars of pressure, simply to change a single word. Who can withstand that?

Wikimedia is just one small pebble in this river.

Soft propaganda is going to rewrite how the world perceives the sinosphere, more thoroughly and more profoundly than any Winstons rectifying Wikipedia. I don't think we have any meaningful models to understand what's going on right now -- there's not really much precedent in history or even in fiction.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#39

Post by antonvs »

refenestrator wrote: post #31
1ris wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, no private organisation can "recognize" a state. That is a privilege for states. Private organisations can only boycott (non-)states by not doing any business with said (non-)citizens. Why in the world Wikimedia do that, and how? Second, this policy by china is the problem. Not the lack of obedience by the rest of the world.

They should be a lot less aggressive and assertive about it, but, given the stakes nd the history I think the polite fiction is perfectly fine compared to lots of alternatives.

It's better than a lot of alternatives, but it is not "perfectly fine". It's about much more than word usage for China, and they will exploit every inch given to them on this matter until they have occupied Taiwan.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#40

Post by baybal2 »

Ericson2314 wrote: post #36
1ris wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, no private organisation can "recognize" a state. That is a privilege for states. Private organisations can only boycott (non-)states by not doing any business with said (non-)citizens. Why in the world Wikimedia do that, and how? Second, this policy by china is the problem. Not the lack of obedience by the rest of the world.

I have 0 clue why in the 1970s we didn't make it a de jure situation, like with Korea, like with Vietnam. China wanted the UN seat, right? Would they really turn that down because the US insisted on saying some shit about Taiwan? When they were kinda broke and caught between us and Soviets? Did the KMT really not want to give up "Republic of China", even if it meant being relegated to non-country status? Does it even…

> China wanted the UN seat, right? Would they really turn that down because the US insisted on saying some shit about Taiwan?

Because the security council seat was for the taking.

And ChiComs had a very good memory how the Korean war started.

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