Ruqqus, an open source Reddit clone, is shutting down their main instance • Hacker News Board

Re: Ruqqus, an open source Reddit clone, is shutting down their main instance

#61

Post by pgeorgi » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 5:47 PM UTC

1270018080 wrote: post #25

Is it possible to create a free speech reddit alternative that doesn't immediately turn into a right wing extremist site? My mind immediately turns to the Paradox of Tolerance, and I think the answer is no.

I wonder if there are any actual free speech services out there: Would any of them tolerate being swamped (as in 90%+ of the content) with insults hurled at their owners and operators?

My guess would be that there's already a limit to their tolerance. And from there, it's really a matter of seeing what kind of content they _do_ tolerate.

A site full of extreme* right wing stuff: That site is an extreme right wing site. If it is indeed "free speech" (which isn't demonstrated yet), that's merely coincidental, but it's not its defining property.

* To adopt hunterb123's preferred phrasing, because for them extremism apparently only begins when people start to draft assassination plans, not just daydreaming about it. I don't care about that particular semantic game, so I'll be as compatible as possible on this thread.

Re: Ruqqus, an open source Reddit clone, is shutting down their main instance

#62

Post by uabstraction » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 5:48 PM UTC

1270018080 wrote: post #25

Is it possible to create a free speech reddit alternative that doesn't immediately turn into a right wing extremist site? My mind immediately turns to the Paradox of Tolerance, and I think the answer is no.

You either approach it from the social perspective, or the utilitarian perspective. From the social perspective, the goal is building a community. To build a community, people need to be held accountable for antisocial behavior. The technology is secondary.

Most of the times leftist communities split off from mainstream platforms, it is because the platforms either enable rampant antisocial behavior, limit the community's autonomy in deciding how to deal with it, or its just plain censorship.

The libertarians see it as a utilitarian problem. Banning any content or behavior is beyond the pale, and they try to build out their technology to ensure this "marketplace of ideas" prevails. They consider themselves rugged individualists, so the goal of building a community is an afterthought.

Re: Ruqqus, an open source Reddit clone, is shutting down their main instance

#63

Post by pgeorgi » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 5:49 PM UTC

hunterb123 wrote: post #54

pgeorgi wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, the edgelord defense, a Tried and True practice. One issue is that the entire thread is _only_ edgelords in that model. I couldn't find anybody on that page speaking out against the ideas espoused by the poster. As for "comment that you'd find anywhere", I know a few places where I wouldn't find such comments. Not because oh-the-oppression, but because people don't engage with them in the same way as on that page…

On Reddit they have an entire subreddit for making fun of people's death. Reddit is the edgelord's gala. Anytime a Republican got sick, they'd wish for them to die throughout the front page.

So we're not arguing if any service is about free speech and how that pertains to extremism, but only which kind of edgelord is worse? Boring.

Re: Ruqqus, an open source Reddit clone, is shutting down their main instance

#64

Post by nemothekid » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 5:49 PM UTC

hunterb123 wrote: post #58

nemothekid wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ah yes, making fun of people dying is okay as long as you obscure the names! Yes. You've made up an imaginary enemy in your head and you are talking down to others based on the imaginary Reddit company in your head. The reason those other communities were banned were for targeted harassment, doxing of real people, and brigading other subreddits. Reddit has never stated that they were any rules on the "morality" of…

> Reddit has never stated that they were any rules on the "morality" of the content. Cool, so both sides don't have rules on morality and the only speech moderation we should be worried about on any site is illegal speech. I agree.

>the only speech moderation we should be worried about on any site is illegal speech

I never said that. I, for one, am not a free speech absolutist, and I think those that pretend they are, are children of the Facebook era of online discourse. I am iterating once again, that Reddit has clear rules and those rules have largely been executed without political bias. If your favorite subreddit got banned, they were very likely violating those rules.

Re: Ruqqus, an open source Reddit clone, is shutting down their main instance

#65

Post by noobermin » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 5:52 PM UTC

Igelau wrote: post #17

optimalsolver wrote: post #2

While these "free speech" Reddit alternatives end up taking a far-right tone, what's funny is how all discussions they host have to be approached from that angle. So you can't just talk about your favorite TV show. You have to first make a nod to how it features a Jewish conspiracy to push black-white interracial relationships. Only then can you go on to discuss the actual episode.

The comment that got flagged for trying to reverse this missed its point, but I thought it had one. My reply-too-late: While that is a little hyperbolic, there's definitely a "kid gloves" approach you have to take in a lot of online discussions. E.g. there was an article on burnout that popped up on HN[0] recently where the author made sure to apologize for being a "privileged white chick" early on. You can't just ta…

Hard to read this comment and not see it as putting an equivalence between these two points. How are anti-Semitic conspiracies regarding miscegenation comparable to annoying virtue signaling by white people?

The comment doesn't regard sort of right-leaning conservatism, these websites cater to the far right, anti-Semitism, conspiracy theories, racism, etc. Not the ambiguous, "having an afro is cultural appropriation" sort of racism (or what far left/idpol people consider racism may be), literally people calling for ethnostates and even genocide of groups of people. That's the problem and part of why these sites die, because they get populated by extremists who get kicked off of the larger, corporate platforms.

That's the problem. Nothing to do with "sensitivity online" or whatever, unless sensitivity includes being bothered by fringe ideologies that most of the population don't accept.

Re: Ruqqus, an open source Reddit clone, is shutting down their main instance

#66

Post by hunterb123 » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 5:53 PM UTC

pgeorgi wrote: post #63

hunterb123 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On Reddit they have an entire subreddit for making fun of people's death. Reddit is the edgelord's gala. Anytime a Republican got sick, they'd wish for them to die throughout the front page.

So we're not arguing if any service is about free speech and how that pertains to extremism, but only which kind of edgelord is worse? Boring.

So you admit we are comparing two edge lords from opposing sides of the political spectrum. Thank you.

You started this by mis-categorizing an edge lord as an "extremist".

Re: Ruqqus, an open source Reddit clone, is shutting down their main instance

#67

Post by pgeorgi » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 5:55 PM UTC

hunterb123 wrote: post #66

pgeorgi wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we're not arguing if any service is about free speech and how that pertains to extremism, but only which kind of edgelord is worse? Boring.

So you admit we are comparing two edge lords from opposing sides of the political spectrum. Thank you. You started this by mis-categorizing an edge lord as an "extremist".

I don't know them, so if you assert that they're an edgelord and not an extremist, I can only imagine that you do know them.

Lacking any other information, and given a relative unimportance of that person to me, I'll take your word on that. Given the time you devote on the defense of that community, it's certainly more important to you than it is to me.

Re: Ruqqus, an open source Reddit clone, is shutting down their main instance

#68

Post by i21QMgplhRJs2OL » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 5:56 PM UTC

1270018080 wrote: post #25

Is it possible to create a free speech reddit alternative that doesn't immediately turn into a right wing extremist site? My mind immediately turns to the Paradox of Tolerance, and I think the answer is no.

If left wing voices were equally banned from the mainstream sites then there would be balance on the alternatives.

Re: Ruqqus, an open source Reddit clone, is shutting down their main instance

#69

Post by hunterb123 » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 5:59 PM UTC

nemothekid wrote: post #64

hunterb123 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Reddit has never stated that they were any rules on the "morality" of the content. Cool, so both sides don't have rules on morality and the only speech moderation we should be worried about on any site is illegal speech. I agree.

> the only speech moderation we should be worried about on any site is illegal speech I never said that. I, for one, am not a free speech absolutist, and I think those that pretend they are, are children of the Facebook era of online discourse. I am iterating once again, that Reddit has clear rules and those rules have largely been executed without political bias. If your favorite subreddit got banned, they were very…

We'll agree to disagree, but Reddit's track record speaks for itself.

It's a liberal echo chamber by design, no amount of gaslighting will change that, anyone can tell from 5 minutes of browsing.

Re: Ruqqus, an open source Reddit clone, is shutting down their main instance

#70

Post by BitwiseFool » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 6:00 PM UTC

I think this is a good place to mention O'Sullivan's First Law: "All organizations that are not actually right-wing will over time become left-wing.": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_O'Sullivan_(columnist)

Any platform that establishes itself as a result of a purge from a left-wing dominated platform like Reddit will start out as explicitly right-wing and will struggle to gain non-partisan membership. That new platform will get its reputation tainted for being a place for extremism - even if it permits both left-wing and right-wing views. The left-wing folks won't see a need to join the new platform because they already have the existing one to feel comfortable in. They are content to let the new platform be seen as a hotbed for right-wing radicalism, continue to smear its reputation, and then wait for it to whither and die.

On the flip side, any platform that starts out as non-partisan eventually gets dominated by left-wing / left-leaning folks. I personally have seen this happen countless times on subreddits individually, then reddit as a whole. I sense that this is because activists on the left tend to naturally gravitate towards becoming moderators and establishing new forum rules whenever they take over. Most of the new rules are unobjectionable but questionably appropriate. "No Racism / Homophobia / Transphobia" is a fine rule, but is it really necessary in a woodworking subreddit? The other kind of rules are more subtle and easy for moderators to abuse, like "be friendly", which can be applied against right leaning folks and ignored when left leaning folks get confrontational. Eventually the conservative/right folks get drowned out by agenda-posting and getting downvoted en-masse. They either self-censor, just accept the downvotes and keep posting, get banned, or try to leave for a new forum.