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Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

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Re: Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

#91

Post by krageon »

Zababa wrote: post #66
krageon wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> VSCode It's not even good! This has to be the strangest cargo-cult following of all options you could have. If you're going to use a proprietary closed editor anyway, use something like a jetbrains IDE. At least then you will have a lot of very complete and well-integrated features.

> It's not even good! This has to be the strangest cargo-cult following of all options you could have. I don't think that's true. It's lighter and faster than big IDEs while being way more accessible than them and vim/emacs. It handles most of what you throw at it, has lots of very good extensions, and you can easily use your shell. If you don't understand what's good about it, that's a failure on your part. > If you…

> lighter and faster

While it is true that it has advanced somewhat since it's electron days, this is still not the case. It is at best acceptable.

> open source

Not in any way that matters. Try packaging a not crippled version of the application and you will find out in short order.

Re: Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

#92

Post by ibiza »

vintermann wrote: post #49
drekipus wrote: post #17

There's been a number of "anti-vim, use a real ide(TM)" posts coming into my feed lately and I don't get why. Do people really get buttmad about this? I switched from vscode to vim as I found it to be largely much faster in getting around when I started my new job, some people find the opposite. A ok. Why do people try to force us into these largely closed solutions? ( Mainly it's vscode, which has a real EEE threat)

I've never gone for vi(m), even after roughly 25 years of using Linux now. I'm not trying to force you into anything, certainly not anything closed. I used NEdit until its lack of utf-8 and ancient GUI library started causing trouble. Then I used Slava Pestov's JEdit, which was wonderfully extensible and portable. Now I use vscode, which is just so outrageously well made that even electron and Microsoft can't scare m…

I feel compelled to link to the SO answer:

Your problem with Vim is that you don't grok vi https://stackoverflow.com/a/1220118/867757

You cannot create a "language for manipulating text" in a modeless editor, at least not a very rich one.

Re: Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

#93

Post by markenqualitaet »

Personally I think, whatever ctrl-s is doing instead of saving, is the only really hostile default in vim. To a beginner it's the "mysteriously break vim for good" shortcut. And maybe the lack of ctrl-c/-v clipboard management. I hate pasting things into default vim.

Re: Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

#94

Post by blackbear_ »

pliftkl wrote: post #68
Scarbutt wrote: post #10

vim anti-pattern number one: not switching to emacs

As an older guy this made my smile, and also a little nostalgic for the flame war that this might have ignited 20 years ago.

The flame is alive and well, just look at the comments! Now that Emacs got out of the way (hah!) Vim is dealing with the next contender, vs code.

Re: Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

#95

Post by infinitezest »

simion314 wrote: post #69
ironmagma wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of times it's easier to just learn the tools of the trade instead of fighting a never-ending battle. I don't need or like awk, but I learned it because it's in use and it was very helpful to do so.

vim - is not my tool of trade, I am developer so I prefer IDEs like Intellij for coding and for config files I will use kate for local and for remote nano will do the job. It makes no sense to learn vim because I am hit with it once a year, I better learn tools like "tail" and "grep" this ones are useful for what I do. But sure if you are a sysadmin or ssh daily and edit big complex config files the sure learn vim if…

I mean, based on the complaints outlined in your comment above it kind of sounds like vim _is_ a tool of your trade (albeit one that you don't use very often). The basics are probably worth learning just so you don't have to care when you run into vim (opening files, inserting text, save and exit). Learn it once and you're good to go.

Or you can keep resetting the default editor to nano. You do you, friend.

Re: Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

#96

Post by blacktriangle »

bern4444 wrote: post #90

One tool that helped me a lot was learning about :h usr_01.txt. There are 45 or so of these pages. Reading through some of them was one of the most useful ways to learn vim. What's weird is very few blogs or articles mention these even existing despite the suggestions for using vimtutor or reviewing the :h command for finding help on specific settings.

Same goes for Emacs, nobody points you to the Info system, which is absolutely amazing.

Perhaps this is because both vimtutor and the Emacs tutor do refer to their respective help systems, but given the sad state of most help systems beginners are familiar with I think they can be forgiven for not taking the recomendation seriously. Its worth really emphasizing to beginners that there is a follow up to the simple vimtutor/TUTORIAL built right into the editor.

Re: Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

#97

Post by justinsaccount »

markenqualitaet wrote: post #93

Personally I think, whatever ctrl-s is doing instead of saving, is the only really hostile default in vim. To a beginner it's the "mysteriously break vim for good" shortcut. And maybe the lack of ctrl-c/-v clipboard management. I hate pasting things into default vim.

That is not vim, ctrl-s/control-q turn on/off flow control. Very useful if you want to temporarily pause command output.

You can turn it off using `stty -ixon`, and this also wouldn't be a problem in a graphical vim, but vim would need to have a keybinding for it.

Re: Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

#98

Post by _v7gu »

lou1306 wrote: post #82
jiggawatts wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People say things like this, as if other text editors don't have the same functions. The alternative is not "notepad.exe", it's Textpad, VS Code, or IntelliJ IDEA. Delete an entire line: CTRL-Shift-K in VS Code. Or just look at the end of the file: Ctrl-End in most editors. Etc...

Try "Delete until the 3rd closed parenthesis", or "Delete everything within the {} block currently under the cursor". In Vim it's pretty natural, because commands are compositional. It's like you can "talk" with the editor and tell them exactly what you want, rather than just moving around and inserting/removing/selecting characters. Granted, it's not easy to learn and perhaps not for everyone. I think it takes a cer…

Today I learned there was a better way than "dt)..", but that is still one of the things I like most about vim: verb+adverb+subject goes a really long way instead of trying to learn millions of keyboard shortcuts. Each new verb really expands your options rather than doing a single thing like a keyboard shortcut.

Re: Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

#99

Post by Zababa »

krageon wrote: post #91
Zababa wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not even good! This has to be the strangest cargo-cult following of all options you could have. I don't think that's true. It's lighter and faster than big IDEs while being way more accessible than them and vim/emacs. It handles most of what you throw at it, has lots of very good extensions, and you can easily use your shell. If you don't understand what's good about it, that's a failure on your part. > If you…

> lighter and faster While it is true that it has advanced somewhat since it's electron days, this is still not the case. It is at best acceptable. > open source Not in any way that matters. Try packaging a not crippled version of the application and you will find out in short order.

> While it is true that it has advanced somewhat since it's electron days, this is still not the case. It is at best acceptable.

It is faster than Jetbrains IDEs or Eclipse.

> Not in any way that matters. Try packaging a not crippled version of the application and you will find out in short order.

https://vscodium.com/

Re: Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

#100

Post by ashton314 »

civilized wrote: post #5

I just don't buy the premise that I will profit from spending a lot of time optimally customizing a text editor to my supposedly very unique and special needs. Seems more like a weird para-work hobby than an actual productivity hack.

Wait until you get RSI. I’ve tried to cut down on the number of keystrokes I have to do something (Emacs user here, recently switched to evil-mode) and I’m more comfortable and productive.

Do you customize your command line at all? What about your desktop? Keyboard? Chair? Office? Editor is just another part of the stack.

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