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Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

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Re: Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

#11

Post by jpe90 »

bluedays wrote: post #9
civilized wrote: post #5

I just don't buy the premise that I will profit from spending a lot of time optimally customizing a text editor to my supposedly very unique and special needs. Seems more like a weird para-work hobby than an actual productivity hack.

Then don't. Just learn the basics. Learn how to use insert mode, edit some files, ignore anything not directly relevant. Eventually you'll come across a particular use case where opening a full blown IDE doesn't feel worth the effort, so you'll open vim. You'll learn a few shortcuts, because it would be nice to delete an entire line, or just look at the end of the file. What do you know `dd`, and `G` respectively do…

> Eventually you'll come across a particular use case where opening a full blown IDE doesn't feel worth the effort, so you'll open vim.

Imho there are strictly better options than vim for this nowadays for people who are not already invested in vim. Sublime text is easier for people that prefer GUIs. For CLI, Kakoune has better discoverability, better thought/more consistent commands, and actually usable colorschemes and syntax highlighting out of the box.

Re: Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

#12

Post by civilized »

jpe90 wrote: post #11
bluedays wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then don't. Just learn the basics. Learn how to use insert mode, edit some files, ignore anything not directly relevant. Eventually you'll come across a particular use case where opening a full blown IDE doesn't feel worth the effort, so you'll open vim. You'll learn a few shortcuts, because it would be nice to delete an entire line, or just look at the end of the file. What do you know `dd`, and `G` respectively do…

> Eventually you'll come across a particular use case where opening a full blown IDE doesn't feel worth the effort, so you'll open vim. Imho there are strictly better options than vim for this nowadays for people who are not already invested in vim. Sublime text is easier for people that prefer GUIs. For CLI, Kakoune has better discoverability, better thought/more consistent commands, and actually usable colorschemes…

Yeah. It's pretty easy to delete a line in Sublime, and contrary to CLI fan wisdom, a single accurate trackpad gesture is simpler and faster than the barrage of commands needed to jump to a particular line.

The studies that "prove" CLIs are faster than GUIs are decades old now, and my experience says they're obsolete.

Re: Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

#13

Post by kovek »

civilized wrote: post #5

I just don't buy the premise that I will profit from spending a lot of time optimally customizing a text editor to my supposedly very unique and special needs. Seems more like a weird para-work hobby than an actual productivity hack.

Most text editors work in what vim calls "insert mode"

Vim also has normal mode where every key has an effect on the editing. You can jump forward, backward, delete a word, a line, yank(copy), paste.

readline and MacOS Cocoa also have interesting ctrl/alt+key combinations.

It's useful.

You can use those vim skills in most IDEs. So, your editing will be faster in those IDEs.

I believe vscode is doing a better job at extensions UX than vim. These days, webkit is allowing a smoother experience than TUIs.

Re: Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

#14

Post by echelon »

civilized wrote: post #12
jpe90 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Eventually you'll come across a particular use case where opening a full blown IDE doesn't feel worth the effort, so you'll open vim. Imho there are strictly better options than vim for this nowadays for people who are not already invested in vim. Sublime text is easier for people that prefer GUIs. For CLI, Kakoune has better discoverability, better thought/more consistent commands, and actually usable colorschemes…

Yeah. It's pretty easy to delete a line in Sublime, and contrary to CLI fan wisdom, a single accurate trackpad gesture is simpler and faster than the barrage of commands needed to jump to a particular line. The studies that "prove" CLIs are faster than GUIs are decades old now, and my experience says they're obsolete.

Vim movements allow you to compose rich intentions with a matter of a few keystrokes. I find it very hard to believe that can be beat with a mouse unless someone is using gestures.

More than anything, it's about not switching devices. Typing feels like playing the keyboard. Switching to the mouse feels like having to pick up a trombone between keys. (I know that's a bit dramatic of an analogy, but...)

Re: Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

#15

Post by lawn »

civilized wrote: post #5

I just don't buy the premise that I will profit from spending a lot of time optimally customizing a text editor to my supposedly very unique and special needs. Seems more like a weird para-work hobby than an actual productivity hack.

I spend all days writing code in my editor, and will probably do so for many decades to come. Even small improvements will add up to to large differences over time.

Re: Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

#16

Post by civilized »

echelon wrote: post #14
civilized wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. It's pretty easy to delete a line in Sublime, and contrary to CLI fan wisdom, a single accurate trackpad gesture is simpler and faster than the barrage of commands needed to jump to a particular line. The studies that "prove" CLIs are faster than GUIs are decades old now, and my experience says they're obsolete.

Vim movements allow you to compose rich intentions with a matter of a few keystrokes. I find it very hard to believe that can be beat with a mouse unless someone is using gestures. More than anything, it's about not switching devices. Typing feels like playing the keyboard. Switching to the mouse feels like having to pick up a trombone between keys. (I know that's a bit dramatic of an analogy, but...)

Bringing up the old mouse makes this conversation sound so dated - as I said, I use a trackpad. Specifically, like millions of others, I work on a MacBook Pro with an incredibly precise trackpad right under the keyboard. I move my hand to and from that trackpad in about 0.1s, and I can click on anything I want in less than half a second. "Rich intentions in a few keystrokes" doesn't sound competitive with that IMO.

Re: Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

#17

Post by drekipus »

There's been a number of "anti-vim, use a real ide(TM)" posts coming into my feed lately and I don't get why. Do people really get buttmad about this?

I switched from vscode to vim as I found it to be largely much faster in getting around when I started my new job, some people find the opposite. A ok.

Why do people try to force us into these largely closed solutions? ( Mainly it's vscode, which has a real EEE threat)

Re: Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

#18

Post by jpe90 »

civilized wrote: post #12
jpe90 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Eventually you'll come across a particular use case where opening a full blown IDE doesn't feel worth the effort, so you'll open vim. Imho there are strictly better options than vim for this nowadays for people who are not already invested in vim. Sublime text is easier for people that prefer GUIs. For CLI, Kakoune has better discoverability, better thought/more consistent commands, and actually usable colorschemes…

Yeah. It's pretty easy to delete a line in Sublime, and contrary to CLI fan wisdom, a single accurate trackpad gesture is simpler and faster than the barrage of commands needed to jump to a particular line. The studies that "prove" CLIs are faster than GUIs are decades old now, and my experience says they're obsolete.

I develop with emacs using my keyboard exclusively and I'm 100% convinced there is no appreciable benefit for doing so, it's pure personal preference. I remember seeing John Carmack express that didn't feel it was worth it to become a text editor power user, and he was getting numerous twitter replies insisting he was missing out on enormous productivity benefits. Imagine saying that to one of the most productive programmers of all time. It cracks me up every time I think about it.

Re: Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

#19

Post by rendall »

civilized wrote: post #16
echelon wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vim movements allow you to compose rich intentions with a matter of a few keystrokes. I find it very hard to believe that can be beat with a mouse unless someone is using gestures. More than anything, it's about not switching devices. Typing feels like playing the keyboard. Switching to the mouse feels like having to pick up a trombone between keys. (I know that's a bit dramatic of an analogy, but...)

Bringing up the old mouse makes this conversation sound so dated - as I said, I use a trackpad. Specifically, like millions of others, I work on a MacBook Pro with an incredibly precise trackpad right under the keyboard. I move my hand to and from that trackpad in about 0.1s, and I can click on anything I want in less than half a second. "Rich intentions in a few keystrokes" doesn't sound competitive with that IMO.

I'd happily race using vim against anyone using any pointer device. Your very fast 0.1s accumulates over the day, the week, the year. Versus never moving your hand away from the keyboard.

Re: Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

#20

Post by dustintrex »

jpe90 wrote: post #11
bluedays wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then don't. Just learn the basics. Learn how to use insert mode, edit some files, ignore anything not directly relevant. Eventually you'll come across a particular use case where opening a full blown IDE doesn't feel worth the effort, so you'll open vim. You'll learn a few shortcuts, because it would be nice to delete an entire line, or just look at the end of the file. What do you know `dd`, and `G` respectively do…

> Eventually you'll come across a particular use case where opening a full blown IDE doesn't feel worth the effort, so you'll open vim. Imho there are strictly better options than vim for this nowadays for people who are not already invested in vim. Sublime text is easier for people that prefer GUIs. For CLI, Kakoune has better discoverability, better thought/more consistent commands, and actually usable colorschemes…

The great thing about vi(m) is that it's always there. SSH'd into some random server and need to edit some random config? vim.

And Sublime is vim with a user-friendly-ish GUI wrapped around it.

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