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Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

reuters.com

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Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#211

Post by bjourne »

tptacek wrote: post #95
nabla9 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like if you take everything into account, taking the vaccine might not provide any benefit from men under 30. Any medical intervention must be beneficial to justify the use. If it's so and so, or equal risk, then it's not done. EDIT: The alternative is not stopping vaccinations. Men under 30 are given Pfizer.

The number of C19 fatalities under 30 in the US appears to easily exceed the number of vaccine-related myocarditis cases. The overwhelming majority of those myocarditis cases followed a benign course. Later Another thing to consider is that the myocarditis rate from C19 itself may exceed that of the vaccine, which would basically refute the argument against vaccination. (By all means, pick vaccines strategically.)

Even if the benefits outweigh the drawbacks for society you cannot make that calculation. You cannot administer a vaccine to a healthy person just because it doesn't increase their risk of dying as much as it decreases someone else's risk of surviving. Young healthy men should not be coerced into accepting an elevated risk because getting to herd immunity or whatever might save old and at risk persons.

For children and healthy young people below the age of 30, Covid is mostly harmless (https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57766717). The risk of vaccination may actually be higher since the vaccines currently used aren't fully researched nor fully approved yet. The situation is not black or white. Vaccination may be very useful for people aged 50 and above but at the same time counterproductive for children.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#212

Post by 8note »

CRConrad wrote: post #186
yes_man wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://thl.fi/en/web/thlfi-en/-/thl-monitoring-myocarditis-... According to Finnish Institute for Health and Welfare, an additional 4 cases per 100k men under the age of 30. They also note that having covid is a risk factor for myocarditis. So perhaps still worth it to take the shot. Possibly they are doing this to put out the antivax wildfires in social media by reacting to statistical information about risks. So a…

> They also note that having covid is a risk factor for myocarditis. So perhaps still worth it to take the shot. No: Absolutely not worth it to take that particular shot, as there are others available which don't have that side effect.

Is it likely that if both the vaccine and the virus cause it, that the symptom could be related to the spike protein itself?

In that case, I'd expect all of the vaccines to have a similar risk, and it's only been spotted in one so far

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#213

Post by guywhocodes »

citilife wrote: post #103
ceejayoz wrote: post #2

> "A Nordic study involving Finland, Sweden, Norway and Denmark found that men under the age of 30 who received Moderna Spikevax had a slightly higher risk than others of developing myocarditis," he said. I find it frustrating that we’re still not putting numbers on statements like this in news articles. How slight?

The long-term studies I am way more curious about. Heart damage typically can cause lasting effects. Many people may have heart damage and not even know it. I'm not making any specific claims, just that it's unknown. Here's an explanation of how a heart cannot or very slowly repairs: https://www.uclahealth.org/heart/cardiac-repair-regeneration

I personally know three persons that got some degree of chest pain. I had worse symptoms than they did, now 3 months later I can let my heart rate hit maximum, which is significantly lower than before.

My cardiologist says that without an MRI he can't diagnose me and my insurance did not cover it. It's quite likely imo that there is a relevant diagnosis not being made because it's inaccessible.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#214

Post by tptacek »

bjourne wrote: post #211
tptacek wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number of C19 fatalities under 30 in the US appears to easily exceed the number of vaccine-related myocarditis cases. The overwhelming majority of those myocarditis cases followed a benign course. Later Another thing to consider is that the myocarditis rate from C19 itself may exceed that of the vaccine, which would basically refute the argument against vaccination. (By all means, pick vaccines strategically.)

Even if the benefits outweigh the drawbacks for society you cannot make that calculation. You cannot administer a vaccine to a healthy person just because it doesn't increase their risk of dying as much as it decreases someone else's risk of surviving. Young healthy men should not be coerced into accepting an elevated risk because getting to herd immunity or whatever might save old and at risk persons. For children a…

Can't make what calculation? The one you just conceded I could make?

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#215

Post by 8note »

bjourne wrote: post #211
tptacek wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number of C19 fatalities under 30 in the US appears to easily exceed the number of vaccine-related myocarditis cases. The overwhelming majority of those myocarditis cases followed a benign course. Later Another thing to consider is that the myocarditis rate from C19 itself may exceed that of the vaccine, which would basically refute the argument against vaccination. (By all means, pick vaccines strategically.)

Even if the benefits outweigh the drawbacks for society you cannot make that calculation. You cannot administer a vaccine to a healthy person just because it doesn't increase their risk of dying as much as it decreases someone else's risk of surviving. Young healthy men should not be coerced into accepting an elevated risk because getting to herd immunity or whatever might save old and at risk persons. For children a…

I don't think that's the right question or comparison.

If this young person below 30 gets a side effect from the vaccine, is that side effect worse than what they'd get by having the virus?

It should be clear that we aren't going to suppress or eradicate covid, so you shouldn't be comparing getting the vaccine or nothing happening, but getting covid with or without the vaccine

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#216

Post by guywhocodes »

cletus wrote: post #147
noetic_techy wrote: post #110

The problem is that the perception of public trust is eroding significantly the more we learn and the more fervent the mandates become. We pulled the swine flu vaccine for way less back in 2010, I think it was 12 cases of GBS only! The fact that I know of people who have either had mycarditis AND clots tells me the rate is much higher then reported by VAERS. The reason damn near everyone except for adamant anti-vax h…

> The problem is that the perception of public trust is eroding significantly ... There are many problems. That's not one of them. Here is a better list of problems: 1. People don't understand what "research" means. Hint: watching a Youtube video with no peer-reviewed research is not "research"; 2. People fundamentally don't understand and assess risk correctly. This long predates the anti-vaxxer hyseria. It's why, f…

The main assumption that is incorrect here is that there is no alternative to the mRNA vaccines targeting the spike protein.

I'm not against vaccination but I would not recommend it to anyone after what it did to my body. Whatever it is.

Give me anything else and I'll take it, all I need is COVID risk reduction and due to where I am it will likely be one of the Chinese alternatives.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#217

Post by dingdongbing »

Delk wrote: post #105
thepasswordis wrote: post #68

In nordic countries these vaccines are restricted. In the US, they're required . Very odd.

They're restricted in the sense that the health authorities stopped recommending a specific covid-19 vaccine for a particular demographic. That demographic -- young males under 30 -- are recommended and given a vaccine from another vendor (practically Pfizer) instead. That's rather different than the impression you might get from "these vaccines being restricted", or something similar.

That's actually not true, people who got the first dose of moderna will not get a second one, and it's being stopped for all persons under 30, not just males. In practice it will be stopped for everyone above 30 as well. /Swede

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#218

Post by 8note »

__blockcipher__ wrote: post #89
nicoburns wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a young male who got myocarditis from both covid and the vaccine, the other thing that's worth knowing that I wish I'd known earlier: if you do get it, then the best thing to do to prevent long-term damage is to avoid exercise completely (potentially for 6 months to a year, or until you've been cleared by a doctor).

Just out of curiosity, did you get COVID first and then decided to get the vaccine later on? Or was it the other way around? I'm guessing the former - I've had friends who had COVID and their doctors still advised them to get the vaccine - and find it quite troubling if so. We've known for so long now how robust natural immunity is - and before we "knew for sure" any sane person's priors would still assume natural im…

If I got a serious case of covid, my priors would be that my immune reaction sucked, not that it was sufficient.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#220

Post by iratewizard »

cletus wrote: post #204
iratewizard wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USDA and AHA recommended cutting out saturated fat for decades and eating 9-13 daily servings of bread and grain. The authorities you say all should blindly follow are grossly incompetent and shown to be wrong time and time again. How long has the medical field been failing with its reproducibility crisis? How many deaths per year are attributed to malpractice in the US? If you want to listen to a bunch of well m…

USDA/AHA > Tucker Carlson (who is vaccinated BTW) > If you want to listen to a bunch of well meaning morons ... Oh the irony. The sad reality is that anti-vaxxers are highly susceptible to being manipulated and that is actively happening by people who are completely hyprocritically doing so for their own personal gain. Every living president (including Trump) and governor is vaccinated. All but 3 Senators are vaccina…

Why do you assume I get information from the idiot box? Is it because that's where you get all of yours? You clearly have no idea what I was saying if your first statement tries to say the AHA is more of an authority than some TV taking head.
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