Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#171

Post by ceejayoz » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 9:57 PM UTC

pyronik19 wrote: post #168

ceejayoz wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kids don't even feel this shit if they catch it. In general, sure, but that's a bit like arguing people should be able to drive drunk because drunks are more likely to survive a car accident. https://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/odds-favo... > A retrospective study of nearly 8,000 trauma patients found that seven percent of people who came in sober died of their injuries, while those who were hurt whi…

Then the establishment should just be honest about it instead of trying to fear-porn parents into wanting to "protect your kids from the deadly disease".... Just say.... we are going to put your kids at risk from the vaccine because we think the ends justify the benefits for old people.

> instead of trying to fear-porn parents

> we are going to put your kids at risk from the vaccine

A bit on the nose, don't you think?

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#172

Post by lliamander » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 9:57 PM UTC

orf wrote: post #27

~2.7 cases of myocarditis per 100k. Deadly car crashes in the US is about 11 deaths per 100k (between 3.3 and 25 when looking at states directly, 18.2 worldwide average). That's not even counting indirect deaths caused by car fumes. So to the person posting the same thing from new accounts about vaccines being a great risk to yourself, I hope you take driving and crossing the road as seriously as you take getting vac…

That's like saying "War and Peace isn't a big book because it isn't even as big as the smallest car". Yes, both can be measured in the same units (e.g. weight or volume) but that doesn't mean the comparison makes sense.

You have to compare things which are in some sense alternatives of each other. The question is not "is the vaccine safer than driving" but "is the vaccine safer than not getting the vaccine?".

Sure, if you don't get the vaccine there's a certain risk of getting COVID and subsequently having serious disease (though if you are a young and healthy that risk appears to be relatively low).

And certainly the vaccine lowers your risk of getting serious disease (for now) but it doesn't entirely erase that risk. So now you have figure out what the long-term risks of adverse reaction to the vaccine are, plus the long-term risk that you will still get serious COVID disease anyway (due to the narrow immunity provided by the vaccine).

For young, healthy people it's not clear to me the vaccine is all that much safer than not getting it. If you can show me, by a breakdown of these risks by age and health, that the I'm wrong and the vaccine is much safer I would be very open to it. As it is, I've tried to find something comprehensive and I cannot.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#173

Post by nojokes » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 10:00 PM UTC

Mikeb85 wrote: post #25

azinman2 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2.7 per 100k [1] according to an Israeli study. Couldn’t find these details on the Scandinavian study. This article at least in text said you’re more at risk of getting it from Covid than the vaccine — I wish this context with numbers were always printed in these cases. The non-scientifically trained public isn’t taught or should be expected to know how to contextualize these things. [1] https://www.nejm.org/doi/full…

> This article at least in text said you’re more at risk of getting it from Covid than the vaccine But the risk of getting COVID in any time period is less than 1 (based on % of population that has actually had it, possibly less than 0.1 or 10% per year), so it's worth waiting for the safest vaccine for certain groups.

In Scotland about 8% of 12-15 year olds got it in 5 weeks after the beginning of the school year. UK did not vaccinate <16 year olds till 20th September. Now they got forced natural immunity.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#174

Post by makomk » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 10:01 PM UTC

orf wrote: post #27

~2.7 cases of myocarditis per 100k. Deadly car crashes in the US is about 11 deaths per 100k (between 3.3 and 25 when looking at states directly, 18.2 worldwide average). That's not even counting indirect deaths caused by car fumes. So to the person posting the same thing from new accounts about vaccines being a great risk to yourself, I hope you take driving and crossing the road as seriously as you take getting vac…

The trouble with myocarditis caused by the mRNA vaccines is that even though the risk is low, for some of the age groups it seems to be higher than the risk of them being hospitalized due to Covid. (A risk which a lot of people seem to overestimate, but that's another story.) So even though they should be more worried about crossing the road than the vaccine, it's also entirely rational for them to consider the vaccine a bigger danger than Covid itself.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#175

Post by bsder » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 10:03 PM UTC

gorwell wrote: post #59

A lot of comments here asking for specific numbers and making comparisons to other risks. That's exactly how one should be looking at this. What I don't understand is why people don't apply this same critical thought process to the risks of Covid? For example, do you know what the risk of hospitalization from Covid is when unvaccinated? If you said >50%, you would be in good company. It's the most common answer. But…

As someone who had a "mild" (I only had a 103 fever for 3 weeks, swelling in all manner of weird places, and exhaustion) Covid Original Flavour(tm), I still have symptoms due to the aftermath even a year later.

Research keeps increasing the percentage for people who have "long Covid" symptoms and the length of their duration.

And I didn't have a symptom like losing my smell which seems to be very common. Losing your sense of smell for a very long time really sucks.

People are vastly underestimating the risks of actual Covid and vastly overestimating any risks from the vaccine.

And this is before we talk about the fact that people are dying of treatable, non-Covid diseases because Covid patients who won't get a vaccine are clogging the hospitals.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#176

Post by makomk » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 10:05 PM UTC

javagram wrote: post #102

sergiotapia wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's heretical to say such things and "anti-science" as branded by the media. The fact that California now wants kids to get the vaccine is bonkers to me. Kids don't even feel this shit if they catch it. Pharmaceutical companies must be paying big bucks to the politicians in that state.

Covid is more dangerous to kids than chicken pox, we still vaccinate kids for chickenpox though. Hundreds of children have died of Covid-19. https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-Focus-...

Not all countries vaccinate kids for chickenpox. The UK still doesn't for example. I'm pretty sure it's easily the least necessary of the childhood vaccinations.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#177

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 10:07 PM UTC

Certhas wrote: post #165

noetic_techy wrote: post #110

The problem is that the perception of public trust is eroding significantly the more we learn and the more fervent the mandates become. We pulled the swine flu vaccine for way less back in 2010, I think it was 12 cases of GBS only! The fact that I know of people who have either had mycarditis AND clots tells me the rate is much higher then reported by VAERS. The reason damn near everyone except for adamant anti-vax h…

Anecdote. Fear mongering. Misleading statistic. Misleading/demonstrably wrong information presented with an air of "obviously". Conspiracy... What is eroding trust in vaccines are narratives like this. You pretend like every single point you raise (accelerated development, VAERS) doesn't have a clear explanation that is readily available with a single search. You pretend as if these "issues" you identify are swept un…

[deleted]

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#178

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 10:10 PM UTC

[deleted]

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#179

Post by justsee » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 10:10 PM UTC

timothycrosley wrote: post #139

iratewizard wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's my vaccine anecdata. My wife and I are at the age when everyone we know is starting to have kids. My wife and I got pregnant on the first try, and 3 of her other friends had similar easy success. All 4 unvaccinated. On the vaccinated side of her friends there are two miscarriages, one stillbirth, one who has been trying since June, one trying much longer than that, and one that we think has been trying for a w…

While we are sharing meaningless anecdotes, almost everyone I know (since I live in Seattle) has been vaccinated. No one has reported any issues, a couple have since successfully had a child. None have even gotten a breakthrough infection of covid. Among friends I know from back east, who haven't gotten vaccinated, one had just turned 30, only health issue was obesity. He died. One was 35, best shape of any of my fri…

It's not as settled as you seem to think.

Leading vaccine developer Nikolai Petrovsky (who's working on a traditional, protein-based vaccine) recently mentioned in an interview that if he had a pregnant wife he'd advise her to avoid both the virus and the vaccine (something only the privileged could attempt, so not a one-size-fits-all recommendation) [1]

(In a more technical interview aimed at a scientific audience, he outlines a number of issues he has with the current options. [2])

One of Petrovsky's key issues is that on pregnancy and children, the sensitivity is so high and risks so great that there is usually a much, much higher bar before vaccines are authorised for use: that's been the history of traditional, protein-based vaccines where it can take decades before they're authorised for use in pregnant women, babies, children.

Pfizer only began their pregnancy and safety trials in February this year - so only a little over 7 months ago. It is designed to observe pregnancy through to newborns reaching 6 months of age, and will complete in a year.

So we currently have no safety data in pregnancies from pre-conception via all-important and sensitive first trimester, through to full term + 6 months.

Keep in mind the WHO changed position on safety and aligned with the CDC on recommending the vaccine 3 weeks before Pfizer even started its safety trials.

None of this is to say that getting Covid isn't currently provably worse than getting a current vaccine.

It's just to say the safety data is incomplete, there are still unknowns which could change the calculation significantly considering the nature of the technology used, and we just won't fully understand the issues for some time to come.

(Also keep in mind that with mandates, the proposal is for all to receive the current options, but the alternative is not for all pregnant women to become infected. The risk calculation generally assumes wrongly here.)

[1] https://www.doctorlewis.com.au/podcast-1/2021/7/19/episode-2...

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL_2Rq1zoRg&t=3063s

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#180

Post by timothycrosley » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 10:13 PM UTC

pyronik19 wrote: post #164

iratewizard wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the hospitalization rate for 20s - 40s for getting the vaccine? What's the hospitalization rate for covid?

Do we even know the real number? VAERS is highly underreported and how many vaccine cases are just getting labeled as "covid cases"... I love the southpark skit about this "covid related"... worth a watch.

This is complete nonsense. If anything VAERS would be over-reported, the people who are most against vaccination, blast it so often I see it in my facebook feed more often than advertisements. Anyone can add to VAERS, and I'm sure with all the antivaxx advertisement of it, they DO. Not to mention that doctors are required to, and report even unrelated deaths that happen right after vaccination. Meanwhile the reporting standards for covid, are the same as flu, nothing's changed there just a bunch of people grasping at straws, toward what goal I can't imagine.