Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Bitcoin is a Ponzi

ic.unicamp.br

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

251–260 of 684 posts

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#251

Post by aeternum »

dvt wrote: post #61

People use BTC/ETH/etc. in exchange for goods . I mean, I'm not a fan of cryptocurrency, but calling it a Ponzi scheme is just wrong. There are plenty of shitcoins out there that are purely pump and dumps, but it seems like BTC is here to stay.

The author also fails to realize that #3 of his own definition is not true for bitcoin. Revenues are collected by miners via the transaction fees.

Or is the author going to try to argue that txn fees don't count, and then Visa is also a Ponzi?

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#252

Post by hatware »

adolph wrote: post #178
lpa22 wrote: post #11

> They generally invest in gold as a hedge -- a "store of value" -- that they hope will retain its value in case other assets go sour. I strongly believe bitcoin will be the new gold one day, if it doesn't pan out as a currency. It sounds insane, but I actually believe the Winklevoss twins when they say Elon and SpaceX will be able to mine gold on asteroids within the next 20 years, which would crash the price of gol…

Mining gold on asteroids will likely be more expensive than mining on this planet. If mining gold on asteroids crash the price of gold, who would mine gold from asteroids? On the other hand, if one were to buy proven gold reserves stored on an asteroid, then that might make sense. The exploration company could discount the value of the gold by the existing cost of sending it to Earth and the ongoing cost of guarding…

>Mining gold on asteroids will likely be more expensive than mining on this planet.

What if I told you they could send asteroids to the planet to be mined _on the planet_ and crash the price of gold?

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#253

Post by stale2002 »

zacmps wrote: post #163
jliptzin wrote: post #147

Bitcoin is a lot of different things to a lot of different people. The fact that it satisfies a certain set of conditions of a Ponzi scheme does not invalidate the myriad current and future applications of crypto. The social security administration could also be considered a Ponzi scheme, but it still provides tremendous value to a lot of people.

I'm sorry, what applications? Besides accelerating global warming there doesn't seem to be anything it's good at.

> what applications?

Back in 2010, credit card companies blocked off all donations to wikileaks, even though they had not been found to be breaking any laws.

Yet, people could still donate bitcoin to them.

Censorship resistance, is still useful, even in situations where nobody has broken any laws.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#254

Post by glenvdb »

zacmps wrote: post #163
jliptzin wrote: post #147

Bitcoin is a lot of different things to a lot of different people. The fact that it satisfies a certain set of conditions of a Ponzi scheme does not invalidate the myriad current and future applications of crypto. The social security administration could also be considered a Ponzi scheme, but it still provides tremendous value to a lot of people.

I'm sorry, what applications? Besides accelerating global warming there doesn't seem to be anything it's good at.

Please look at this data and then come back and tell me you still think Bitcoin mining is having a meaningful impact on climate change and why.

https://cbeci.org/index/comparisons

I'd be curious to read your thoughts.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#255

Post by logicchains »

louloulou wrote: post #233

Lol at most of HN thinking Bitcoin is a ponzi and the fractionally reserved US dollar monetary&banking system is not. It's been over a decade guys, try opening your eyes and your minds or you're going to go down with the ship.

>It's been over a decade guys, try opening your eyes and your minds or you're going to go down with the ship.

In HN's mind, crime is okay if our enlightened government does it.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#256

Post by Freskis »

BrianHenryIE wrote: post #196
BrianHenryIE wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Commerce.

To be entirely clear, a company I work with accepts Bitcoin, then ships physical products.

Is it possible you are not being accurate? That the company is actually receiving cash which has been converted from Bitcoin by a service? Accepting raw Bitcoin would lead to huge problems such as transaction time and price volatility.

Either way, accepting bitcoin is horrifically bad for the environment, and one of the most ecologically destructive things tech companies do. It is not something I would be proud of.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#257

Post by smt88 »

ltbarcly3 wrote: post #53

Using this dumb definition of a ponzi scheme, every stock IPO that doesn't pay a dividend is a ponzi scheme. Bitcoin is valuable because people agree on using it as a form of money, and it is limited in supply. Nobody is making more bitcoins from nowhere to pay out existing bitcoin holders. Idiotic definition of a ponzi scheme crafted intentionally to include bitcoin, fails to include bitcoin, but does cover many val…

> every stock IPO that doesn't pay a dividend is a ponzi scheme

I agree with you in spirit. Stocks that will never pay a dividend (if you can see the future) are worth $0. Most stocks are effectively speculative assets.

The difference is that a stock has a real, legal value: ownership of a company that has cashflows. If that company is liquidated, you have rights as a shareholder. You may also be able to vote on important decisions that the company makes.

Bitcoin is an asset that, by definition, never will pay a dividend. It is a stock that we know with certainty is worth $0. Its only value is speculative.

In that sense, Bitcoin is very much like fiat currency: its value is imaginary and based on how other people value it.

But if we're comparing Bitcoin and, say, USD, then Bitcoin is by far the worse currency because it's deflationary and unbelievably expensive to transact.

That's why, in places with unstable currencies, people mostly shelter their money in USD. If cryptocurrencies factor into it, it's because those currencies are seen as easier ways to transact USD. People who need their assets to be spendable on a daily basis don't hold them in Bitcoin.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#258

Post by lrvick »

By this criteria basically all speculative investments from Pokémon cards to many/most stocks are Ponzis.

Gold is worth more than metals far more rare because of hoarding and resulting scarcity, etc. Historically those who buy early accumulate more value.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#259

Post by sellyme »

HashBasher wrote: post #239
sellyme wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Doesn't Bitcoin provide a more convenient/less expensive way to send money between countries The current bitcoin transaction fee is more than 100x what my bank charges, so no, not really.

A bitcoin transaction and a bank transaction are very different things. A bitcoin transaction is settled as soon as the block is mined. Without any third parties or trust involved, and no way to reverse the transaction. While a bank transaction could settle in days and always with some trusted third party. Try making a transaction over the lightning network (layer 2 tech of bitcoin), it’s instantly settled and almost…

> no way to reverse the transaction

It boggles my mind that people genuinely believe this is a good thing, especially in an ecosystem so rife with scammers.

I get that it's rather integral to the primary use cases of bitcoin, but that doesn't mean you have to pretend it's a good thing when marketing the currency to the average joe as a PayPal replacement.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#260

Post by hanniabu »

dybber wrote: post #201
hanniabu wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So no different than gold?

https://www.usfunds.com/slideshows/the-many-uses-of-gold/ Go to Coinbase and try to figure out how to use Bitcoin to buy something with. All they talk about is Bitcoin as an investment. A currency can’t be an investment as the expectation that it will rise in value undermines the main quality of a currency, which is to maintain a stable value, so it can be used as intermediary.

Go to a gold exchange and try to figure out how to use it for microchips.

Coinbase has a focus on trading. However, you can use bitcoin to buy things through Coinbase Commerce.

Post reply on HN