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Apple requires account deletion within apps in AppStore starting January 31

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Re: Apple requires account deletion within apps in AppStore starting January 31

#241
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard you can change your address to California, which then gives the option to cancel online (due to state law). It is absolutely ridiculous that NYT will happily take your card info online, but require you to be on hold to speak with their "customer care" to cancel. Maybe it is time to use virtual CC's a la privacy.com.

The Globe and Mail operates similarly. I spent some time while cancelling a few years ago informing them that making me call them to cancel is a crime in California. The person on the line cancelling my account was genuinely surprised. Canada was the first to require simple unsubscribe for email lists... I'm surprised it still does not have a law to require online unsubscribe for media subscriptions.

> I'm surprised it still does not have a law to require online unsubscribe for media subscriptions.

Newspaper editorial endorsements are still a big thing in Canada.

> The Globe and Mail operates similarly.

But this is good to know. I was considering swapping another newspaper subscription for a Globe and Mail subscription, but after looking into it, the eventual unsubscribe hassle isn't worth it.

Re: Apple requires account deletion within apps in AppStore starting January 31

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re talking about something else. Do we expect money-making companies to be the ones to war against authoritarian regimes? Do we not also expect companies to obey the laws of the lands in which they conduct business? You can’t just say screw it to GDPR and expect to continue to be able to conduct business in the EU.

I do expect the company that sells hardware to their users to allow users to decide which apps to run on sold devices. Currently, Apple is behaving as if still owns those devices and decides which apps to run. Precisely this lock-in created by apple is actively exploited by authoritarian regimes. If Apple will allow third-party app stores or direct installation of applications on devices, dictatorships will lose this…

> If Apple will allow third-party app stores or direct installation of applications on devices, dictatorships will lose this capability to harm Apple's customers.

As someone who switched from the Samsung note line to iPhone, the only freedom I felt from the ability to install other apps was the freedom to deal with all the unrecoverable crap ware.

There’s other phones out there with greater freedom than the iPhone, people are aware of them, and are still choosing the iPhone.

The curation is a benefit in that I have a corporation with thousands of employees working to prevent the other corporations from making my user experience worse. If the curation goes away I’d probably switch to a cheaper phone next upgrade and I’m sure apples aware of that

Re: Apple requires account deletion within apps in AppStore starting January 31

#243

This policy seems purposefully vague. "Explain its data retention/deletion policies and describe how a user can revoke consent and/or request deletion of the user’s data." My first question before looking into it was, "What an auth tenant or some other service that stores user data?" or, "what about like a banking or healthcare app that is just a portal for another system?" And, "What does deleted even mean? IsDelete…

It sounds like you’d like to work at Apple and help them improve their guidelines process. They don’t offer what-if examples, and they note that it’s by design that the guidelines are not detailed to the level you’re asking, so that they have the flexibility to make judgment calls and prevent rules-lawyering problems that crop up with the more detailed approach you seek.

1. Auth tenant. Common sense says that if the auth provider is operated by you, it’s your problem to handle deletions appropriately, either by removing their account or by warning the user that you’re only deleting the specific site account and providing a link to delete the SSO account at your website or whatever. If you do not operate the identity provider, such as Facebook, then you need do nothing about it at deletion time. Apple would likely approve any of those paths without comment, but to defend against rules lawyering and loophole seeking, there’s no way to be perfectly certain until it’s approved.

2. Banking or healthcare app. If you can sign up in-app, you’ll need to let people close/delete in-app, except where prohibited by contract or law. For corporate healthcare, you would pop a dialog that says “This account can only be closed through your employer”, which would be absolutely sufficient. Ditto for a banking account with non-zero balances or a safety deposit box or whatever. It seems likely Apple will not have cause to enforce the deletion clause against brick and mortar banks, since they all have help/faqs on how to close accounts already. App-only banks will be held to the more strict standard of having some way to initiate deletion, being app-only, though of course they’ll retain financial audit records as required by law.

3. Deleted means that all information not essential to compliance with financial and other auditing laws has been removed from your systems. Exceptions are understood to exist for recording that someone requested deletion, but you can’t use those records for marketing or training AI or any other purpose beyond managing your deletions. If you can’t explain in plain simple English how you handle deletions, they’re likely to reject your submission until you can.

All of this is obvious. It isn’t comfortable to consider that you’re at the mercy of human beings to evaluate your compliance — human beings that see a thousand scams a minute trying to hack loopholes in the guidelines. But that’s how it is today.

Re: Apple requires account deletion within apps in AppStore starting January 31

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep - and these are the SAME places posting LONG articles about how terrible Apple's store policies are. Uh, folks spend a lot on the apple store for a reason.

The problem is how Apple both profits from the app store and sets rules on the app store. It’s incentivized to create rules that make it money without helping users. Apple needs to either stop making money from the app store or to create a separate body that can set rules without being incentivized by profit. Laws are good, but the lawmakers shouldn’t profit from them.

Walmart profits from their store and sets the rules from their store. The incentive is to make the store a place people want to spend money. This is the same as almost any other store isn't it?

You do that by making it safe and comfortable for users (or in androids case maybe by doing deals with phone companies to pre-load their apps and make money off users there ).

Apple is only partly successful, they have 15% market share in phones or so. But one area they've been good at is trust - users on an iphone probably spend a lot more (it's also harder to pirate, so what developers give up in profits they make back in lack of pirating).

Re: Apple requires account deletion within apps in AppStore starting January 31

#245
How is this supposed to work for insurance or banking apps? I would think those companies separate your "online account" from your actual account with them or something like that. I guess more generally how will this affect apps where "deleting your account" is a complicated affair (insurance, banking, mobile service, utilities, etc).

Re: Apple requires account deletion within apps in AppStore starting January 31

#246
post #193
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm, I worked at a fintech company previously with a large number of users. They had a "deleted_at" column on the user table in the database. It's not actually deleted.

Isn't this almost necessarily true for any system which needs an auditable history? Just thinking out loud, of course cascading deletes will fail, so I guess you could avoid using true foreign keys to the user table for things which are truly related, and then you'd know what the user did but presumably no PII... Seems insanely sketchy though. Way cleaner to soft delete if you ever need to recover history, which the…

You don't need to delete the rows from the database. Just replace user's name, address and phone with random data.

Re: Apple requires account deletion within apps in AppStore starting January 31

#247
post #100
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did the same a few years ago and it was relatively painless, however there are many people that do not like confrontation and "stonewalling" is not an easy task. NY Times understands this and preys on a specific segment of the population.

I don’t know. It’s 6 words and you don’t even have to be rude about it or get annoyed at the offers they throw at you. Then you get the confirmation email and you’re set.

They don't have the right to my attention. If they were to cancel my service due to lack of payment (for example), do you think they would engage me in a dialogue to discuss it or just send me a notice in the mail?

Re: Apple requires account deletion within apps in AppStore starting January 31

#248

How is this supposed to work for insurance or banking apps? I would think those companies separate your "online account" from your actual account with them or something like that. I guess more generally how will this affect apps where "deleting your account" is a complicated affair (insurance, banking, mobile service, utilities, etc).

How does it work today?

All mobile banking apps that allow signup seem to also allow account closure, so there isn’t exactly a problem there.

If I sign up for insurance in an app, I expect (and Apple will enforce) that I can cancel it in an app. Setting aside certain health insurance scenarios where I have no legal authority to terminate my insurance, I expect that Apple will absolutely start enforcing that insurance account management apps need to have a way to terminate coverage. But I think this isn’t the kind of business they’re concerned about, so they might focus on other business categories first.

Re: Apple requires account deletion within apps in AppStore starting January 31

#249
From the guidelines:

> (v) Account Sign-In: If your app doesn’t include significant account-based features, let people use it without a login. If your app supports account creation, you must also offer account deletion within the app. Apps may not require users to enter personal information to function, except when directly relevant to the core functionality of the app or required by law. If your core app functionality is not related to a specific social network (e.g. Facebook, WeChat, Weibo, Twitter, etc.), you must provide access without a login or via another mechanism. Pulling basic profile information, sharing to the social network, or inviting friends to use the app are not considered core app functionality. The app must also include a mechanism to revoke social network credentials and disable data access between the app and social network from within the app. An app may not store credentials or tokens to social networks off of the device and may only use such credentials or tokens to directly connect to the social network from the app itself while the app is in use.

Also interesting:

> (viii) Apps that compile personal information from any source that is not directly from the user or without the user’s explicit consent, even public databases, are not permitted on the App Store.

So why is Facebook still allowed? It still creates shadow profiles without permissions as far as I know.

Re: Apple requires account deletion within apps in AppStore starting January 31

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why using the blockchain got user data is such a stupid idea. The immutability makes it impossible to redact or remove information, even if that information is encrypted. The same is true foor P2P services where there is no central accounting system. Deleting the account shouldn't be a problem if all the "account" info is stored on the device itself, so if your reviewers aren't completely incompetent I don't…

Hate to break it to you but banks are not deleting your account immediately when you close it. They legally can't.

Banks are under a completely different set of regulations so are many other financial companies as well as other sectors like insurance and medical.

They have specific regulation regarding record retention.

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