European Parliament Calls for a Ban on Facial Recognition • Hacker News Board

Re: European Parliament Calls for a Ban on Facial Recognition

#51

Post by rsynnott » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 3:56 PM UTC

toss1 wrote: post #34

skywal_l wrote: post #2

The subtitle is also important: Non-binding resolution also asks for AI-based predictive policing ban. AI, by its complexity and opacity should not be used to profile people. Just because it could be so easily manipulated.

>>AI, by its complexity and opacity should not be used to profile people. Just because it could be so easily manipulated. True, but I'd add in a touch of Hanlon's Razor — don't attribute to malice what can be attributed to mere incompetence — far too much of the time, the technology is just bad and wrong. It has been over-promised and under-delivered. It is so often wrong that there are numerous lawsuits, including o…

> don't attribute to malice what can be attributed to mere incompetence

Police use of this nonsense is either malice or _negligence_; it's not mere incompetence. If you're the enforcement arm of the state, you largely lose the right to plead incompetence; if you don't do the research; that's negligent.

Re: European Parliament Calls for a Ban on Facial Recognition

#52

Post by rsynnott » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 3:58 PM UTC

kbos87 wrote: post #42

Any discussion of regulating the use of facial recognition by government misses the point. Private industry has just as much if not more power to misuse the technology. I don’t know what a global opt out system would look like, but that’s the only serious answer to preventing misuse.

From the article:

> In a resolution adopted overwhelmingly in favor, MEPs also asked for a ban on private facial recognition databases, like the ones used by the controversial company Clearview AI

Re: European Parliament Calls for a Ban on Facial Recognition

#53

Post by bko » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 4:00 PM UTC

smarx007 wrote: post #13

No, EU parliament is not calling for a ban on facial rec. They are proposing to: forbid using it indiscriminately in public places and to forbid the use of any AI/ML in predictive policing.

> forbid the use of any AI/ML in predictive policing

I don't get what this means. If you use basic statistical methods and realize that murders are more likely to occur in this location between these hours and adjust your police force accordingly, is this bad? Shouldn't police use basic statistical methods in determining effective policies?

Re: European Parliament Calls for a Ban on Facial Recognition

#54

Post by rsynnott » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 4:00 PM UTC

4wsn wrote: post #12

Ah, yes, the European Parliament. They have a great track record regulating technology, not at all like a bunch of out of touch clueless boomers. I'm sure something as complex as facial recognition is well within their capabilities to comprehend.

This will no doubt take years to go anywhere, for the EU moves exceeding slow. But generally the end result is quite carefully thought out. I'm sure you realise this and are just being obtuse, but any actual law would be written by civil servants with expert input, not the MEPs themselves.

Re: European Parliament Calls for a Ban on Facial Recognition

#55

Post by RandomLensman » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 4:03 PM UTC

kbos87 wrote: post #42

Any discussion of regulating the use of facial recognition by government misses the point. Private industry has just as much if not more power to misuse the technology. I don’t know what a global opt out system would look like, but that’s the only serious answer to preventing misuse.

I would sharply disagree with this. The ability to bring proper force into play is not with corporations. Looking at the 20th century, state actors are the ones that could and did kill millions.

Re: European Parliament Calls for a Ban on Facial Recognition

#56

Post by spunker540 » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 4:04 PM UTC

I’d be in favor of banning facial recognition as evidence used in trials, but still allowing it to aid in investigations. I.e let it help narrow down suspects when faced with grainy footage, but can’t be used to actually make a conviction.

Re: European Parliament Calls for a Ban on Facial Recognition

#57

Post by boredumb » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 4:06 PM UTC

kbos87 wrote: post #42

Any discussion of regulating the use of facial recognition by government misses the point. Private industry has just as much if not more power to misuse the technology. I don’t know what a global opt out system would look like, but that’s the only serious answer to preventing misuse.

Private entity and individuals come and go at a much higher frequency than government. You still raise a valid point but there is reason the focus is on government. I'd also go as far to say that at least on HN there is a lot more discussion of anti-privacy and invasive practices in the private sector facebook/google/amazon/messenger platforms/etc than in the government.

Re: European Parliament Calls for a Ban on Facial Recognition

#58

Post by Closi » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 4:06 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #53

smarx007 wrote: post #13

No, EU parliament is not calling for a ban on facial rec. They are proposing to: forbid using it indiscriminately in public places and to forbid the use of any AI/ML in predictive policing.

> forbid the use of any AI/ML in predictive policing I don't get what this means. If you use basic statistical methods and realize that murders are more likely to occur in this location between these hours and adjust your police force accordingly, is this bad? Shouldn't police use basic statistical methods in determining effective policies?

> If you use basic statistical methods and realize that murders are more likely to occur in this location between these hours and adjust your police force accordingly, is this bad?

It depends - These models are often non-transparent in terms of how they calculate, so what if the AI/model decides/calculate that a higher percentage of minorities in an area is a high predictor of crime, thus indirectly creates a policy that, for instance, areas with high levels of ethnic minorities require higher levels of policing or harsher restrictions (i.e. curfews, more CCTV e.t.c.).

If it's just a basic 'well murders happen between these hours on this street so we will put a police officer there' then of course that should happen, but that's not really policing based on AI/ML, it's just based on basic statistics.

Re: European Parliament Calls for a Ban on Facial Recognition

#59

Post by tsegers » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 4:08 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #53

smarx007 wrote: post #13

No, EU parliament is not calling for a ban on facial rec. They are proposing to: forbid using it indiscriminately in public places and to forbid the use of any AI/ML in predictive policing.

> forbid the use of any AI/ML in predictive policing I don't get what this means. If you use basic statistical methods and realize that murders are more likely to occur in this location between these hours and adjust your police force accordingly, is this bad? Shouldn't police use basic statistical methods in determining effective policies?

Using basic statistical methods to determine effective policies can result in policies that a lot of people would consider unfair and unethical.

Re: European Parliament Calls for a Ban on Facial Recognition

#60

Post by sentinel » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 4:10 PM UTC

simion314 wrote: post #37

sentinel wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is already happening without facial recognition.

But this can be disrupted, here it is a startup idea but probably Google and Amazon are already working on it 1 offer all shops free surveillance hardware, you will offer them notifications when a suspect enters the shop. You need some PR stuff with big numbers where you claim on how many of your partners/clients are marking suspects that commited theft and how many billions are saved with this AI tech. 2 collect all…

I doubt that this would happen.