Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

forwardparty.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

241–250 of 638 posts

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#241

Post by _gohp »

Karto wrote: post #158

The top line, "Not Left. Not Right. Forward." kind of reminds me of Macron's "En Marche" ("Let's Go") that took over France in a storm, taking over the presidency AND the parliament only one year after its foundation, with very few previously known political figures in its ranks. The whole thing looked like doing management rather than politics, and offered an alternative to fed-up voters who didn't dare turn to the…

The was once the slogan in ex Yugoslavia, death to fascism, freedom to the people. Socialism/communism light followed. Eventually, once that failed, people started saying f##k communism, death to fascism, freedom to the people. Things never meaningfully changed, though.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#242

Post by ricardobeat »

Karto wrote: post #158

The top line, "Not Left. Not Right. Forward." kind of reminds me of Macron's "En Marche" ("Let's Go") that took over France in a storm, taking over the presidency AND the parliament only one year after its foundation, with very few previously known political figures in its ranks. The whole thing looked like doing management rather than politics, and offered an alternative to fed-up voters who didn't dare turn to the…

In Brazil a couple parties sprouted up in the past few years: Novo (New) and MBL (Free Brazil Movement). They both position themselves as being "outside" of the left-right spectrum.

And of course, it's a marketing trick to capture people who are 'fed up with the system' and don't realize it is an impossible proposition. If you're in government you'll inevitably have to position yourself on all issues, including labour laws, social safety nets, property rights and so on.

Invariably these parties sit on the right of the political spectrum. The current government already ran with this idea back then, made of "outsiders" who incidentally have really far-right ideas and associate with the military. But they see themselves as "apolitical", whatever that means...

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#243

Post by hef19898 »

pjc50 wrote: post #180
Karto wrote: post #158

The top line, "Not Left. Not Right. Forward." kind of reminds me of Macron's "En Marche" ("Let's Go") that took over France in a storm, taking over the presidency AND the parliament only one year after its foundation, with very few previously known political figures in its ranks. The whole thing looked like doing management rather than politics, and offered an alternative to fed-up voters who didn't dare turn to the…

It reminded me of "twirling towards freedom": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:The_Simpsons/Character_... I hadn't realised just how much Macron's party materialized from nowhere. Must have been huge pent-up demand for an alternative. However I suspect that only works in systems that aren't FPTP in the first place, and I suspect Macron is going to the same nowhere that all American third-party candidates go. Espe…

Not sure if he will go nowhere, he is still having the same 4% lead (24% vs 20%) over Le Pen for the 2022 election (I just checked). Macron basically replaced the French Conservatives (they basically died after Sarkozy) while the Socialists (not in the sense most in the US understand that, they are the French left) killed themselves with Hollande after Sarkozy. So there was a huge opportunity for someone like Macron, it seems Le Pen isn't really able to get a true majority.

These numbers are despite things like: Yellow Vest demonstrations against Macron, his hugely unpopular reforms around retirement (especially railways among other things), Covid lockdowns and so on.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#244

Post by gmueckl »

robocat wrote: post #190
tryptophan wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ugh I support electoral reform, but why the obsession with ranked choice? It is the second WORST voting system after first past the post, which is what we have now.

I’m from NZ which changed from FPP to MMP in 1993. Two big problems: 1. Half of the politicians that make it into parliament are from the party list (which is chosen by the party) and are not voted for individually. I believe much of the power of democracy is the ability to vote people out, and the party list mostly prevents that. 2. There is a lot of talk of strategic voting. I guess all systems can be gamed, but MM…

The NZ voting system looks very much like the German system to me. And while that system certainly has its flaws (e.g. when a party has more directly voted members than seats from the overall proportion of votes), it does respect a higher number of cast votes than FPTP. Any vote in FPTP that wasn't cast for the winning local candidate is lost. In MMP, every vote for a party influences the result in every case.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#245

Post by pvg »

hef19898 wrote: post #237
pvg wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basing 21st Century politics on something written in the 18th century is... weird. The Napoleonic Code is about the same vintage as the US Bill of Rights and remains a foundational influence on the legal systems of not just France but many other countries.

Sure, which I pointed out firther down the thread. I have yet to see someone bringing up Napoleon, or his Code Civil, to promote or justify any proposed legislation today.

People do all the time, since, as I mentioned, it's still the basis of the French legal system. For something straight out of the 18th century, the very first sentence of the current French constitution begins:

Le peuple français proclame solennellement son attachement aux Droits de l’Homme et aux principes de la souveraineté nationale tels qu’ils ont été définis par la Déclaration de 1789 [...]

It's just a strange argument to make about two states that were effectively founded right around the same time, espousing broadly similar principles and continue to do so, claiming them as fundamental to their systems of government. Both have had a couple of hundred years' worth of significant reinterpretations of these principles.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#246

Post by hef19898 »

sbergot wrote: post #221
Karto wrote: post #158

The top line, "Not Left. Not Right. Forward." kind of reminds me of Macron's "En Marche" ("Let's Go") that took over France in a storm, taking over the presidency AND the parliament only one year after its foundation, with very few previously known political figures in its ranks. The whole thing looked like doing management rather than politics, and offered an alternative to fed-up voters who didn't dare turn to the…

Macron presented itself as the "reasonable" option between classical left & right & the extreme right. He seems in a pretty good position as far as poles go. The left will be divided as usual. The right is struggling to find a candidate, has many court cases to deal with, and has yet to find its position relative to the far right. The far right is torn with crazy extremists such as éric zemmour. While Macron has made…

Whether or not En Marche collapses after the 2022 election largely depends on whether they win or not.. And if they win, how they do until 2027.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#247

Post by kergonath »

hef19898 wrote: post #201
qsort wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect a huge part of Macron's success was his opponent. France elections have a top-2 runoff, and I wouldn't be surprised if many electors were like "I don't like Macron but I really don't want Le Pen to win". The whole "socially progressive, economically middle of the road" political coalition that would win every election on HN is extremely unpopular in the real world.

In order to qualify for the run-off, Macron had to end up in the top 2 first. Which he did. And that En Marche got the parliament as well was a bit of a surprise. Curious to see how things play out next year so.

Yeah, him getting a majority was the bigger surprise. The presidential election is a popularity contest. Both major, traditional parties shot themselves in the foot repeatedly and lost a lot of their appeal. Then, in a runoff against Le Pen, you just win by not being a Nazi.

Getting enough MPs, so many of them outsiders, on a technocratic platform (so without pulling th usual emotional strings) was quite impressive. Of course, the end result is not great, but then nothing really is these days

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#248

Post by hef19898 »

pvg wrote: post #245
hef19898 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, which I pointed out firther down the thread. I have yet to see someone bringing up Napoleon, or his Code Civil, to promote or justify any proposed legislation today.

People do all the time, since, as I mentioned, it's still the basis of the French legal system. For something straight out of the 18th century, the very first sentence of the current French constitution begins: Le peuple français proclame solennellement son attachement aux Droits de l’Homme et aux principes de la souveraineté nationale tels qu’ils ont été définis par la Déclaration de 1789 [...] It's just a strange a…

And yet I have yet to hear, even a French politician, say things like "as Napoleon wanted for the French people...". That's my point. Plus, the Code Napoleon dates to 1804, not the original revolution.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#249

Post by rndgermandude »

disneygibson wrote: post #189
hef19898 wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the 5th French Republic is going well since the 50s, isn't it? As is the post-war BRD in Germany. Both used to have an Emperor at some point, Italy went from Kingdom to Facist regime to democracy. So yes, if the situation changes you can change your government form. Basing 21st Century politics on something written in the 18th century is... weird. Especially as it is more the interpretation of what the authors…

No, it isn’t weird, it’s simply rejecting the frankly naive notion that you should change everything all the time according to the whims of the populace. History and human nature didn’t begin in 1950. Again, the US has never had anything remotely as horrible as the French Revolution or Nazi Germany. That’s likely a consequence of a constitutional government with limited powers. The United Kingdom is in a very similar…

>Again, the US has never had anything remotely as horrible as the French Revolution or Nazi Germany.

Google the Three-Fifth compromise some day. Or whip out your copy of the US Constitution and closely read Article 1, Section 2, Clause 3. It took a civil war that almost tore apart the nation to rectify.

That's what those - infallible to some - founding fathers compromised on.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#250

Post by hef19898 »

kergonath wrote: post #247
hef19898 wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In order to qualify for the run-off, Macron had to end up in the top 2 first. Which he did. And that En Marche got the parliament as well was a bit of a surprise. Curious to see how things play out next year so.

Yeah, him getting a majority was the bigger surprise. The presidential election is a popularity contest. Both major, traditional parties shot themselves in the foot repeatedly and lost a lot of their appeal. Then, in a runoff against Le Pen, you just win by not being a Nazi. Getting enough MPs, so many of them outsiders, on a technocratic platform (so without pulling th usual emotional strings) was quite impressive.…

Sometimes Macron makes me think of Schröder in Germany. Both came as a surpise, both had to implement some unpopular measures. In the case of Schröder, these measures helped to get Germany back on its economic feet (Germany was Europe's sick man in the 90s) and ultimately cost him his Chancellory further down the road. And not all these reforms were actually "good", Hartz 4 is still a damn disgrace for rich, highly industrialized country. Not that it will be changed anytime soon, regardless of the next government we get. We'll see how Macron does.

Not being a Nazi is actually good thing so. Even more so if it wins elections!

Post reply on HN