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Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

forwardparty.com

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Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#231

Post by dragonwriter »

tryptophan wrote: post #14
a_t48 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm tempted to back them purely for Ranked Choice Voting. Will be keeping an eye on this for the future.

Ugh I support electoral reform, but why the obsession with ranked choice? It is the second WORST voting system after first past the post, which is what we have now.

> It is the second WORST voting system after first past the post

I dunno, I think random ballot is worse.

Its arguably the worst system that uses ranked choice ballots and ever considers more than the first position, though, which is why in should be called its proper name, “instant runoff voting”, and not “ranked choice”.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#232

Post by pvg »

hef19898 wrote: post #183
disneygibson wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany doesn’t exactly have a good record when it comes to new governments. Nor does France. Very odd to use them as positive examples. As flawed as the American government may be, the Constitution is still a more solid foundation than pretty much anything that has come out of Europe since.

Well, the 5th French Republic is going well since the 50s, isn't it? As is the post-war BRD in Germany. Both used to have an Emperor at some point, Italy went from Kingdom to Facist regime to democracy. So yes, if the situation changes you can change your government form. Basing 21st Century politics on something written in the 18th century is... weird. Especially as it is more the interpretation of what the authors…

Basing 21st Century politics on something written in the 18th century is... weird.

The Napoleonic Code is about the same vintage as the US Bill of Rights and remains a foundational influence on the legal systems of not just France but many other countries.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#233

Post by notahacker »

timthorn wrote: post #134
lalaland1125 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does that actually work? How did Trump winning in 2016 help your average Green Party supporter? If anything, didn't Biden win by a larger margin against Bernie in 2020 than Hillary won against Bernie in 2016?

Yes, it can do. Without the real threat of UKIP taking votes from the Conservative Party in the UK, David Cameron would not have promised the in/out referendum on EU membership.

This is a fair counter example, but one also has to consider that (i) much of the referendum demand came from within his own party for ideological rather than practical reasons and (ii) he was able to implement it because the UK's electoral system and multiparty politics gave his party a clear majority with a minority of the vote .

Or put more simply: his personal standing within the party was threatened more than his party's electoral chances (UKIP votes were irrelevant in most Tory seats and took votes off Labour too in marginals), and he wouldn't have been in power anyway under a proportional system.

Ironically, EU Parliament votes being proportional probably played a major role in Farage deciding back in the nineties that he could try to win the Brexit debate from outside the Tory party too...

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#234

Post by rocqua »

Vinnl wrote: post #204
Karto wrote: post #158

The top line, "Not Left. Not Right. Forward." kind of reminds me of Macron's "En Marche" ("Let's Go") that took over France in a storm, taking over the presidency AND the parliament only one year after its foundation, with very few previously known political figures in its ranks. The whole thing looked like doing management rather than politics, and offered an alternative to fed-up voters who didn't dare turn to the…

It's also almost the tagline Rita Verdonk used to use: "Niet links, niet rechts, maar rechtdoorzee" ("not left, not right, but straightforward"). This was when she started her own party after being sidelined by the party of the current prime minister of the Netherlands, after getting more votes than he did. Her party failed miserably, and ten years later he's still prime minister. Which is to say: success doesn't jus…

Note that she was rather right-leaning.

And an alternative translation of 'rechtdoorzee' might be "straight-up as in honest and blunt". Her main platform was blocking immigration.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#235

Post by matthewmorgan »

hef19898 wrote: post #193
disneygibson wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it isn’t weird, it’s simply rejecting the frankly naive notion that you should change everything all the time according to the whims of the populace. History and human nature didn’t begin in 1950. Again, the US has never had anything remotely as horrible as the French Revolution or Nazi Germany. That’s likely a consequence of a constitutional government with limited powers. The United Kingdom is in a very similar…

Funny. It was the French Revolution that paved the way for modern democracies in the West. If I remember correctly, the American Revolutionary Army received quite some assistance from them. It is ironic so, the the French ended up with an Emperor so, I have to agree. Not comparing anything to Nazi Germany, but didn't the US have a pretty nasty Civil War? Also, changing things based on the whim of the population is pr…

American revolution happened before the French one.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#236

Post by dragonwriter »

lalaland1125 wrote: post #35
tryptophan wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ugh I support electoral reform, but why the obsession with ranked choice? It is the second WORST voting system after first past the post, which is what we have now.

Ranked choice has a lot of advantages over the alternatives that are often underestimated by people too worried about theory. The big advantage of ranked choice is that it is simple to understand and implement. In elections, it is essential that the average person understand exactly how the system works. An election result that people don't understand/trust is worse than useless.

> The big advantage of ranked choice is that it is simple to understand and implement

No, its not. That would be a big advantage of the method equivalent to it but without loser elimination and instead counting each rank down on all ballots simultaneously, which is both easier to understand and much easier to implement.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#237

Post by hef19898 »

pvg wrote: post #232
hef19898 wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the 5th French Republic is going well since the 50s, isn't it? As is the post-war BRD in Germany. Both used to have an Emperor at some point, Italy went from Kingdom to Facist regime to democracy. So yes, if the situation changes you can change your government form. Basing 21st Century politics on something written in the 18th century is... weird. Especially as it is more the interpretation of what the authors…

Basing 21st Century politics on something written in the 18th century is... weird. The Napoleonic Code is about the same vintage as the US Bill of Rights and remains a foundational influence on the legal systems of not just France but many other countries.

Sure, which I pointed out firther down the thread. I have yet to see someone bringing up Napoleon, or his Code Civil, to promote or justify any proposed legislation today.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#238

Post by meerita »

This is another attempt to rename socialism. Universal Basic Income will be again the same thing with different name: taxation over taxation. My country Argentina is having a huge problema with offering money montly, they need to print to meet the money demand, it will end really badly.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#239

Post by dagw »

lalaland1125 wrote: post #39
kevmoo1 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ranked Choice (IRV) is better than Plurality, but there are better options. Read about the Condorcet Method

The Condorcet Method has a huge disadvantage that it is hard to understand. Being simple to understand is crucial for voting systems and I would argue is the most important factor since an election without public buy-in is worse than worthless.

Sweden has an extremely complex system for tallying votes and very very few people can explain the exact algorithm that turns a collection of ballots into a list of names of people in Parliament. Even people that follow politics closely only have a vague idea of how it works. Yet most people feel the system is fair and reasonable and there is no real push to change it or make it simpler to understand.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#240

Post by dragonwriter »

cabalamat wrote: post #209
chalst wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

En Marche benefitted from the peculiarity of France's electoral system, which combines proportional representation in a 1st round with a "sudden death" 2nd round for the powerful presidency with only the two best-polling parties taking part. When it became clear that the far-right would be the largest single party, people ditched traditional party allegiances to back a candidate they found tolerable. (Apologies for p…

> which combines proportional representation in a 1st round No it doesn't. The french parliament is elected in 577 single member constituencies by a 2 round system: in the 1st round, voters vote for any candidate. If no candidate wins >50% of all the votes in that constituency, a 2nd round is held, where candidates that came 1st or 2nd or got >12.5% of the vote, in the 1st round, can run. Thus the French 2 round syst…

> Presidential elections, like any other election that elects 1 candidate cannot in principle be proportional

Sure they can, and any system in which a majority of first-preferences guarantees a win is proportional for a one-seat body.

Proportionality doesn't say a whole lot for a single-seat election, though.

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