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It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

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Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#181
post #164
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Look at all the volunteer opportunities, unpajd city boards, etc that people get themselves involved in. Positions such as these often pay in increased social status. Just because the compensation is intangible doesn’t mean it’s not real. Working at an animal shelter may well raise your status with potential partners. Working on a city advisory board will definitely get you noticed and can be a stepping board towar…

> Working at an animal shelter may well raise your status with potential partners. This sounds like an unhealthily cynical view to hold. I certainly hope it does not come as a surprise to hear that some people just genuinely do love animals. Not everything in life boils down to running laps on a hedonic treadmill.

Exactly. I was somewhat in agreement with that person until they dropped this sociopathic nonsense.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#182

I really think that action changes attitude faster than attitude changes action. Learning this the hard way in my 40s, it's been really life changing for me. Particularly when you're depressed, demotivated, find yourself procrastinating, etc. You can try this yourself -- the next time you're feeling demotivated, start with the smallest amount of tiny measurable action. If you can't get out of bed, move your fingers,…

At the same time, When it takes 5 minutes minimum to deploy my code changes to my vms to test, I lose all motivation. Momentum is really the right word and a workflow is just soul sucking.

5 minutes is great, try 3 weeks (due to various "objective issues" aka fuckups across the organization).

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#183

Alternative take: in the hiring process education is often used as a proxy for motivation, when actually it only proves that once upon a time someone was motivated long enough to get educated, but it doesn't actually say anything about their present state in terms of motivation. A 'Do-er' is at least at present motivated, and educating them will get them to the desired combination of education+motivation in the prese…

> A 'Do-er' is at least at present motivated

And since (according to you) the educated person was motivated too at one point, there's no guarantee that a 'do-er' will remain motivated. We also know that at one point (s)he wasn't motivated.

Furthermore, how do you even tell who is a "do-er"? How do you know that that person has the capabilities of learning the task? How much are you willing to invest in education vs. "losing" on hiring the educated person?

None of this makes sense, nor is it backed up.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#184

I really think that action changes attitude faster than attitude changes action. Learning this the hard way in my 40s, it's been really life changing for me. Particularly when you're depressed, demotivated, find yourself procrastinating, etc. You can try this yourself -- the next time you're feeling demotivated, start with the smallest amount of tiny measurable action. If you can't get out of bed, move your fingers,…

Also learned the same thing in my late 40s. It is surprising how many days that I would previously deem as useless (hangover, tiredness, "not in the mood", other "reasons") turn out to be really productive. All I needed is to disregard the internal excuses and start doing.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#185

I really think that action changes attitude faster than attitude changes action. Learning this the hard way in my 40s, it's been really life changing for me. Particularly when you're depressed, demotivated, find yourself procrastinating, etc. You can try this yourself -- the next time you're feeling demotivated, start with the smallest amount of tiny measurable action. If you can't get out of bed, move your fingers,…

| build momentum

Yes! cadence also works.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#186
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I meet a lot of candidates who have no idea why they applied, what they want in life for themselves but are just randoming sending their Resume hoping it sticks. Yeah, well, while I'm working on that I still need to put food on the table, so I'll apologize ahead of time for faking like I give a rats ass about a career long enough to get through the interview process.

Exactly this! I cannot believe someone is naïve enough to think total strangers will start caring about some company's progress, profits and reputation just because they are being paid minimum wage. Sorry, literally 99% of people who are seen as "do-ers" or motivated are only putting up a show to be hired and to keep their jobs. Being hungry and homeless is a great motivator. None is genuinely excited about your busi…

To add to the other comments. That is not how everyone is wired. Some good friends of mine give everything at work and often have trouble to stop thinking about work afterwards. These people worked in shitty private sector jobs, governmental positions and other career paths that will never reward their work with richness.

I personally don't get it. It actually frustrates me a little, they are talented and could achieve real wealth if they'd cared for that. But I accept that people who just work 100% no matter what exist.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#187
post #130

I really think that action changes attitude faster than attitude changes action. Learning this the hard way in my 40s, it's been really life changing for me. Particularly when you're depressed, demotivated, find yourself procrastinating, etc. You can try this yourself -- the next time you're feeling demotivated, start with the smallest amount of tiny measurable action. If you can't get out of bed, move your fingers,…

"Motion before emotion" is a great little mantra to get you started on whatever - waking up, exercise, writing, working, etc. Emotions are sometimes helpful, but in the case of starting things they're usually wrong.

I like your mantra very much. Hard disagree on emotions being wrong though. I am glad i learned to view emotions as messages from the more archaic parts of my brain.

The ones we label as positive come up if we do something that aids the survival of our species. Examples would be pleasure derived from food or sex.

The ones we label as negative are very important IMHO. To prevent harm to ourselves we need Fear, it is a good friend. My theory is that anxiety disorders are like an allergy of the mind. In our super safe world our Amygdala has not much to do, very few (if any) predators around. But it stays on the lookout and reactions to small (or imagined) threats are totally out of proportion.

The rise in depression for me is a symptom of feeling lost/uprooted. If we take the theory that we evolved to live in groups of 100-150 individuals, that we all knew and worked with to ensure survival of the group, as basis and compare our modern lifestyle to it, we come out as extremely alienated from our nature. Even animals commit suicide if they see no way out. Put a scorpion in a ring of glowing embers and it will kill itself.

The root of anger is fear IMHO. Anger is there to ready us to fight in case of a real threat to our life. Nowadays anger rises in situations challenging our worldview, questioning our distorted view of ourselves or our status within the group. My favourite one is getting angry when observing behaviours in others, which we dislike in ourselves. It happens even if we are unconscious it. When i get angry about behaviour of others, i sometimes remember to ask myself if i act the same way.

The fight or flight situation leaves a third and fourth option. Freezing like a deer in the headlights, experienced it once myself. Read somewhere, that some predators only detect motion.

Anger might be expressed as (physical/verbal) violence against others. If it does not, it can turn against yourself and lead to depression.

The most healthy option i think is to accept your emotions and use your anger as motivation to change something for the better.

Following Proverb helped me to accept my emotions:

  "Treat your feelings like a guest.
   Open up, attend to their needs and say goodbye when they leave."

Another useful one:

  "What you fight gets stronger." - Siddhartha Gautama
(edit) formatting, add anger

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hired someone well educated from a Top Ivy League university but they had no motivation whatsoever. I tried my best, gave them everything they wanted (money, work style, tools, training) but they just wouldn't want to be motivated and we failed collectively. They were very smart otherwise and definitely could learn the skills. When I am hiring, for me the biggest things are motivation, curiosity and caring for your…

I have to shake my head when reading some of the replies the parent poster is getting. It is sobering to see so many who have no love for their profession and are trapped into staying solely for money; that's a recipe for an unhappy existence, as can be seen from the bitterness evident in their words.

I personally don't care about tech and take no enjoyment out of programming. I've tried to force myself for years to do side projects and find something in here that is enjoyable. Nothing is. How much I wish I could simply alter my motivation, but no one is the master of his muse.

I don't hate programming. They money is good. Everything else I could do, would come with a serious slash to my salary. And that's just something else. Jobs that might be interesting require additional years of degrees. It's too late for that.

What remains? It is hard to keep the motivation going. I wish it wouldn't be like this. I want to give 100%, each day. But I can't force myself to care. I tried. Let's see how long I can go on like this.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#190
post #131
post #30

The problem with this phrasing is it implies that motivation is an inherent aspect of individuals. Nobody is a do-er. Motivation is impacted by a variety of factors.

Actually there are people who are do-ers. Not everyone is wired the same. Personally I can’t NOT do things. Regardless of if I get paid, it works out, or I even get yelled at for doing it - I fix things, pull things apart and make them better, clean things up, learn, and solve problems regardless of the discipline. If I’m not doing those things, I feel terrible. If I do those things (and the more the merrier), I feel…

I'm in the same group as you. I'm completely unable to keep my stupid mouth shut if I see people doing stupid shit or being inefficient.

This got me promoted at my last company, which was fun for a while, I could actually change the stupid processes and ways of working - but it wasn't my thing in the long run.

Now I'm working in a smaller team as a normal coder and still can't keep my trap shut - but at least people are a lot more experienced and I've got less stuff to complain about =)

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