It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated • Hacker News Board

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#121

Post by westurner » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 11:24 PM UTC

westurner wrote: post #81

~ "Imagine that one could give you a copy of all of their knowledge. If you do not choose to apply and learn on your own, you can never."

This is about regimen, this is about stamina, this is about sticktoitiveness; and if you don't want it, you don't need it, you'll never. And I mean never.

The Grit article on Wikipedia mentions persistence and tenacity and stick-to-it-tiveness as roughly synonymous; and that grit may not be that distinct from other Big Five personality traits, but we're not about to listen to that, we're not going with that, because Grit is predictor of success. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grit_(personality_trait)

To the original point,

> In psychology, grit is a positive, non-cognitive trait based on an individual's perseverance of effort combined with the passion for a particular long-term goal or end state (a powerful motivation to achieve an objective). This perseverance of effort promotes the overcoming of obstacles or challenges that lie on the path to accomplishment and serves as a driving force in achievement realization. Distinct but commonly associated concepts within the field of psychology include "perseverance", "hardiness", "resilience", "ambition", "need for achievement" and "conscientiousness". These constructs can be conceptualized as individual differences related to the accomplishment of work rather than talent or ability.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#122

Post by Avicebron » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 11:26 PM UTC

xvedejas wrote: post #118

Avicebron wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm tired of people signaling themselves as "weird" kids, it wasn't that weird to like computers, there's this fetishization of being "weird", "aspergy", "autistic", that's so tired and sad. no it doesn't make you better or smarter, it's just normal, no no one is a superstar because they were that "hacker" kid, times change, money changes focus and boom, success, it's not smarts, it's timing. and for all the kids out…

It's easy to feel weird as a kid with less perspective over the world. I have empathy for anyone who felt they weren't like the other kids around them for good, productive reasons. Sure, thinking interest in computers = Asperger's is an immature way to convey this. But otherwise I think it's worth celebrating whenever anyone has two-sigmas-above-average nerdy interests, why not?

that's silly, I didn't equate interest in computers with Asperger's, that would be ridiculous, it's just that people like to flaunt some amount of being on a spectrum as a badge of pride, true or not. I'm not saying it's not fun to flaunt it, but, remember, if your two sigma's below average on the physical list your out of luck, times change, power/money changes

EDIT: most human beings feel weird as a kid. That's natural, whether you hit someone with a lacrosse stick or finally learn how to use a terminal, doesn't make you any cooler. money just moves my dude.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#123

Post by Swizec » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 11:28 PM UTC

Avicebron wrote: post #112

davesque wrote: post #93

I think he's likely to trigger a lot of ire with this tweet. However, given what I know about his history, I think I know where this is coming from. Carmack himself did not finish school and was motivated early on to get involved in the profession of writing software despite lacking official credentials which entitled him to do so. I have a similar story and can relate. Therefore, I think what he's getting at is that…

I'm tired of people signaling themselves as "weird" kids, it wasn't that weird to like computers, there's this fetishization of being "weird", "aspergy", "autistic", that's so tired and sad. no it doesn't make you better or smarter, it's just normal, no no one is a superstar because they were that "hacker" kid, times change, money changes focus and boom, success, it's not smarts, it's timing. and for all the kids out…

Dunno mate, when I was one of only 5 people I knew in the world who really like this programming thing, it felt pretty weird.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#124

Post by dorkwood » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 11:30 PM UTC

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #99

dorkwood wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I wrote "as long as they're unit vectors" in my definition.

I swear I double-checked the paragraph before replying… Sorry for the “correction”.

No worries! I probably shouldn't have put it in parentheses at the end...

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#125

Post by Jensson » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 11:32 PM UTC

WithinReason wrote: post #105

mcdonje wrote: post #30

The problem with this phrasing is it implies that motivation is an inherent aspect of individuals. Nobody is a do-er. Motivation is impacted by a variety of factors.

The entire point of the quote is to say that education is easier to acquire than motivation

* If you are motivated. Unmotivated people tend to not get through college.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#126

Post by Spoom » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 11:33 PM UTC

aroundtown wrote: post #113

wara23arish wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is your situation now? Were you able to transition into different work?

Pretty lousy but thanks for asking. I spent the better part of the 7 years: moving for my spouse (they have a phd with limited regions to work in), helped various family members through health issues, then had a health scare of my own. Now waiting on a partner to have a surgery. After their recovered, I'll finally be getting back out there. I'd still like to do software work on anything that isn't related to web page…

We do web apps so if that's a disqualifier, might not be able to help. But if you're open to web app development at a large tech company, send me an email. Your story reminds me of my own.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#127

Post by davesque » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 11:35 PM UTC

Avicebron wrote: post #112

davesque wrote: post #93

I think he's likely to trigger a lot of ire with this tweet. However, given what I know about his history, I think I know where this is coming from. Carmack himself did not finish school and was motivated early on to get involved in the profession of writing software despite lacking official credentials which entitled him to do so. I have a similar story and can relate. Therefore, I think what he's getting at is that…

I'm tired of people signaling themselves as "weird" kids, it wasn't that weird to like computers, there's this fetishization of being "weird", "aspergy", "autistic", that's so tired and sad. no it doesn't make you better or smarter, it's just normal, no no one is a superstar because they were that "hacker" kid, times change, money changes focus and boom, success, it's not smarts, it's timing. and for all the kids out…

Lol...well then. Consider that it's possible that the time in history I'm talking about really was much more different than you realize. I could be wrong, but I'm assuming you didn't come of age during that time (the early to late 90s). I'm talking about when only a handful of funny people had modems or even computers. There were still many households that lacked a computer of any kind. And yes, if you were into computers, you were truly seen as different and even rather unfortunate. There wasn't even really a term for it. The term "autistic" still mostly applied to people who were almost catatonic and not interactive. It may be more or less impossible for people from the current generation of technologists to understand it. Nowadays, as you point out, the idea of being "weird" in that way has become so common place as to be a meme. That's because there's no aspect of our lives that computing has not infiltrated. I'm telling you there was a time when it was different.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#128

Post by ThrowawayR2 » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 11:42 PM UTC

codegeek wrote: post #63

jacquesm wrote: post #33

Alternative take: in the hiring process education is often used as a proxy for motivation, when actually it only proves that once upon a time someone was motivated long enough to get educated, but it doesn't actually say anything about their present state in terms of motivation. A 'Do-er' is at least at present motivated, and educating them will get them to the desired combination of education+motivation in the prese…

I hired someone well educated from a Top Ivy League university but they had no motivation whatsoever. I tried my best, gave them everything they wanted (money, work style, tools, training) but they just wouldn't want to be motivated and we failed collectively. They were very smart otherwise and definitely could learn the skills. When I am hiring, for me the biggest things are motivation, curiosity and caring for your…

I have to shake my head when reading some of the replies the parent poster is getting. It is sobering to see so many who have no love for their profession and are trapped into staying solely for money; that's a recipe for an unhappy existence, as can be seen from the bitterness evident in their words.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#129

Post by javajosh » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 11:43 PM UTC

Jensson wrote: post #117

javajosh wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I have no opinion about picking people. What I do have is the notion that it's very easy to convince yourself that you know when you just have theory. (I have a physics degree, and that seems to come with the territory - there is an XKCD cartoon, of course, that lampoons the physicist considering some long-standing problem in biology or chemistry and believing that the idea they just had after 2 minutes would be…

Are you saying you learned nothing in your physics degree? You learn different things when you do stuff like soldering, but you still learn things when you practice math and theoretical problems. The main value of a degree is that basically nobody learn those things properly on the job. So after a few years in industry the person with a degree now knows both theory and practice, while those who just worked only knows…

No, I think the degree has great value. I like the feeling of knowing a lot. I'm just less and less convinced that I really do.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#130

Post by npunt » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 11:43 PM UTC

zeroxfe wrote: post #107

I really think that action changes attitude faster than attitude changes action. Learning this the hard way in my 40s, it's been really life changing for me. Particularly when you're depressed, demotivated, find yourself procrastinating, etc. You can try this yourself -- the next time you're feeling demotivated, start with the smallest amount of tiny measurable action. If you can't get out of bed, move your fingers,…

"Motion before emotion" is a great little mantra to get you started on whatever - waking up, exercise, writing, working, etc.

Emotions are sometimes helpful, but in the case of starting things they're usually wrong.