Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

twitter.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 229 posts

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#161

Post by scott00 »

aroundtown wrote: post #113
wara23arish wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is your situation now? Were you able to transition into different work?

Pretty lousy but thanks for asking. I spent the better part of the 7 years: moving for my spouse (they have a phd with limited regions to work in), helped various family members through health issues, then had a health scare of my own. Now waiting on a partner to have a surgery. After their recovered, I'll finally be getting back out there. I'd still like to do software work on anything that isn't related to web page…

If your grades were good at the small name school a master's degree at a big name school might be both within reach and give you a shot at compiler and OS work.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#162

Post by thelettere »

npunt wrote: post #130
zeroxfe wrote: post #107

I really think that action changes attitude faster than attitude changes action. Learning this the hard way in my 40s, it's been really life changing for me. Particularly when you're depressed, demotivated, find yourself procrastinating, etc. You can try this yourself -- the next time you're feeling demotivated, start with the smallest amount of tiny measurable action. If you can't get out of bed, move your fingers,…

"Motion before emotion" is a great little mantra to get you started on whatever - waking up, exercise, writing, working, etc. Emotions are sometimes helpful, but in the case of starting things they're usually wrong.

There's an even older term for this, from a little known "anonymous" organization - "bring the body and the mind will follow".

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#163

Post by bsanr2 »

lazide wrote: post #131
mcdonje wrote: post #30

The problem with this phrasing is it implies that motivation is an inherent aspect of individuals. Nobody is a do-er. Motivation is impacted by a variety of factors.

Actually there are people who are do-ers. Not everyone is wired the same. Personally I can’t NOT do things. Regardless of if I get paid, it works out, or I even get yelled at for doing it - I fix things, pull things apart and make them better, clean things up, learn, and solve problems regardless of the discipline. If I’m not doing those things, I feel terrible. If I do those things (and the more the merrier), I feel…

I'd be interested to hear the perspective of the people left in your wake. The cost of engaging with a strong-willed "do-er" is what happens when someone, by the do-er's measure, fails to keep up (or, god forbid, gets in the way). At that point, the do-er's productive ability has to be weighed against their capacity (or track record) for coercion or abuse. Steve Jobs comes to mind. If you've personally received pushback or resentment, it may be less out of misunderstanding of, or a lack of appreciation for, your ability, and more to do with your having been an asshole.

But that may just be my own trauma speaking.

In any case, I think a zen approach is often undervalued, especially per productivity and creativity. "Do" is, after all, a verb, not a noun; a performance, not a crafted object. It's one thing to be proud of one's manifest accomplishments, but to define oneself as a "do-er"...? One can "do" a great many things, including "damage" and "harm."

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#164

Post by bavila »

User23 wrote: post #147
n8cpdx wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't make sense. There are loads of people (myself included) who are intrinsically motivated to do good work. And not just in the tech industry. Look at all the volunteer opportunities, unpajd city boards, etc that people get themselves involved in. People can be motivated by wanting to make a difference. And yes, some software companies do in fact make products and services that make a difference in people's…

> Look at all the volunteer opportunities, unpajd city boards, etc that people get themselves involved in. Positions such as these often pay in increased social status. Just because the compensation is intangible doesn’t mean it’s not real. Working at an animal shelter may well raise your status with potential partners. Working on a city advisory board will definitely get you noticed and can be a stepping board towar…

> Working at an animal shelter may well raise your status with potential partners.

This sounds like an unhealthily cynical view to hold. I certainly hope it does not come as a surprise to hear that some people just genuinely do love animals. Not everything in life boils down to running laps on a hedonic treadmill.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#165

Post by advael »

wongarsu wrote: post #96
theyx wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone knows why they applied, but for the benefit of employers, we have created a society in which it is not acceptable to say "I'm only here for the money, I literally do not care about your company."

Imagine there are two applicants who are equal in every way, just that one genuinely likes the job and has the same goals as the company, and the other is just there for the money. It's not hard to see why anyone would prefer the first candidate. That's the one who is motivated and will go above and beyond if required. As a secondary effect, applicants of course notice that they are more likely to be hired if they ju…

Okay, but even without the second-order effects of signaling games, selecting for enthusiasm is a risky strategy because earnest motivation is not the only or even the most important factor in their contribution. In many cases, a competent professional who gets you the best result might be someone who gives no fucks about the business inherently but does a good job because this strategy betters their reputation (or just their value full stop to their present employer) over time and thus their expected payscale, or just happens to be good at the thing and just wants a stable paycheck.

There two major reasons this matters:

1. In many cases no amount of enthusiasm for your business is more valuable than the hard skills you need. If it were, why can't you, the founder, with enough enthusiasm to start the business in the first place, simply do everything?

2. Genuine enthusiasm is *volatile*. If someone who isn't making business decisions cares deeply about the business' stated goals, they may well take a minor pivot or a strategic choice they disagree with as a slight or even a betrayal, and that enthusiasm quickly disappears or goes negative. In contrast, your indifferent professional has transparent and predictable motivations and you can stay aligned merely by continuing to pay them enough.

Personally, I think people select for enthusiasm about the business for the same reason they might select friends who tell them how cool or attractive or smart they are, and it's a not an amazing strategy for similar reasons.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#166

Post by Terretta »

Avicebron wrote: post #122
xvedejas wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to feel weird as a kid with less perspective over the world. I have empathy for anyone who felt they weren't like the other kids around them for good, productive reasons. Sure, thinking interest in computers = Asperger's is an immature way to convey this. But otherwise I think it's worth celebrating whenever anyone has two-sigmas-above-average nerdy interests, why not?

that's silly, I didn't equate interest in computers with Asperger's, that would be ridiculous, it's just that people like to flaunt some amount of being on a spectrum as a badge of pride, true or not. I'm not saying it's not fun to flaunt it, but, remember, if your two sigma's below average on the physical list your out of luck, times change, power/money changes EDIT: most human beings feel weird as a kid. That's nat…

> tired of people signaling themselves as … this fetishization of being "weird", "aspergy", "autistic", that's so tired and sad … people like to flaunt some amount of being on a spectrum as a badge of pride … doesn't make you any cooler — Avicebron (4 hours ago)

> Not all people want a deeply personal relationship with their co-workers, many would even find being forced to engage in that intrusive. Unfortunately once those bonds are formed between some members of a team, often the team dynamic is shifted weirdly as some people feel forced into the "buddy buddy system"...it's classic now and forcing it into remote work seems like a nightmare — Avicebron (14 days ago)

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#167

Post by [deleted] »

version_five wrote: post #98
theyx wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone knows why they applied, but for the benefit of employers, we have created a society in which it is not acceptable to say "I'm only here for the money, I literally do not care about your company."

I could agree if you're referring to low skill or some entry level jobs. For later professional jobs, this may be true for some, but a lot of people really do have professional career interests, and all things being equal, it's normal for an employer to prefer people who want to be there for more than a paycheck. I've had a few glimpses of what it's like to hate your job and just be there because you need or want the…

[deleted]

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#168

Post by richardw »

codegeek wrote: post #63
jacquesm wrote: post #33

Alternative take: in the hiring process education is often used as a proxy for motivation, when actually it only proves that once upon a time someone was motivated long enough to get educated, but it doesn't actually say anything about their present state in terms of motivation. A 'Do-er' is at least at present motivated, and educating them will get them to the desired combination of education+motivation in the prese…

I hired someone well educated from a Top Ivy League university but they had no motivation whatsoever. I tried my best, gave them everything they wanted (money, work style, tools, training) but they just wouldn't want to be motivated and we failed collectively. They were very smart otherwise and definitely could learn the skills. When I am hiring, for me the biggest things are motivation, curiosity and caring for your…

The career one can be hard. I typically care more than most. I thrive in environments where what I’m doing adds value and fits my own values. I love the challenge, I love building, I love working with amazing people. I’m nearer the end of my career than beginning and I’m still not too sure what I want.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#169

Post by devwastaken »

Taking uni courses later in life, it's because the educated are taught in a very long, boring, and ineffective manner. They believe that's how good education happens because that's what the "experts" do. Turns out that one Khan Academy video is a better instructor than an hour with the math professor here. Students show up just to complete the homework, then forget it, because it's not relevant. Then the uni's pile on wholey unnecessary classes so they can claim to be "elite" and "well rounded", which drains the knowledge relevant to your work even further.

Effective education will happen once we remove federal funding from universities. No more administrative cruft, no more extra general classes to pad coffers, no more relying on tenure to excuse poor quality education.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#170

Post by dcx »

lazide wrote: post #131
mcdonje wrote: post #30

The problem with this phrasing is it implies that motivation is an inherent aspect of individuals. Nobody is a do-er. Motivation is impacted by a variety of factors.

Actually there are people who are do-ers. Not everyone is wired the same. Personally I can’t NOT do things. Regardless of if I get paid, it works out, or I even get yelled at for doing it - I fix things, pull things apart and make them better, clean things up, learn, and solve problems regardless of the discipline. If I’m not doing those things, I feel terrible. If I do those things (and the more the merrier), I feel…

That seems like extremely useful wiring; it's often an uphill climb for me. Do you have any sense of what is going on under the hood? Why do you feel good if you do these things / bad if you don't? Did this come factory installed, or did things happen in your life which set this in place?

Also, do you feel this trait has made your life happy?

I happen to know two people who have a similar trait. One, I learned, did it to distract themselves from inner demons. I don't know the other well, but they seem to enjoy themselves much more than the first.

Post reply on HN