It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated • Hacker News Board

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#91

Post by imbnwa » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 10:49 PM UTC

dorkwood wrote: post #19

imbnwa wrote: post #2

As a mediocre frontend dev, this hits hard. I bought a bunch of texts to up my DS&A and college level math skills as I'd like to eventually be able to excecute on 3D animation in the browser, but the books end up sitting on my desk as I consider I'm too old/there're too many people who _do_ have these skills already, etc.

What sort of 3D animation do you want to do? If you're talking about shaders, you might be doing yourself a disservice with the bottom-up approach. In my opinion, learning to use math functions as tools rather than having a deep understanding of how they work is an equally valid approach. I know several great WebGL developers who really aren't very good at math. Consider the following definitions of the dot product:…

> What sort of 3D animation do you want to do?

This is perhaps where I go wrong, as I assume it's 'all the same thing'. I currently work on a web app that provides an editing interface for 2D animation with DOM objects (so, rectangles), so I have a notion of using matrices for camera transforms but the extension into 3D animation seems like another planet. I get what you're saying with the tool perspective, but I'm usually nervous about "how do I fix something if something breaks".

In the past when I've spoken of what I work on with friends of friends who're professionals in other fields, and I'd frequently be asked about my 3D animation skills as they had some business idea they wanted to execute on. This experience was primarily my motivation to looking further into 3D rather than say gaming so gun to my head 3D modeling and editing would be the first stop.

But the comments here have been helpful

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#92

Post by wara23arish » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 10:50 PM UTC

aroundtown wrote: post #89

This completely ignores the why somebody is unmotivated. I remember being beat down very early in my career. I took advanced math classes, could build compilers, loved embedded device work, wanted to work on more advanced things (operating system level, backend, devices, etc). The only people that would even talk to me were people that wanted web pages built. All because I wasn't fortunate enough to go to a big name…

How is your situation now? Were you able to transition into different work?

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#93

Post by davesque » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 10:50 PM UTC

I think he's likely to trigger a lot of ire with this tweet. However, given what I know about his history, I think I know where this is coming from. Carmack himself did not finish school and was motivated early on to get involved in the profession of writing software despite lacking official credentials which entitled him to do so. I have a similar story and can relate. Therefore, I think what he's getting at is that it's important to just get started on something without waiting until you think you're "allowed" to. This quality of being a "doer" can stand out in colleagues. But of course there are many sides to the story. I don't think he meant to discount the others.

Update: I want to add that I think I recall being aware of figures like Carmack in my teenage years. Knowing of people like him, who were making lives for themselves by actively pursuing their interests, is I think a huge part of why I got involved in software early on in high school. It was a way for weird kids like me to have a sense of self-worth and accomplishment even if we were getting bad grades in more traditional subjects like "World History" or "Social Studies" on account of just not fitting in. And it was also at a time (in the 90s) when the economy highly valued such people going into the dot com bubble. So this tweet doesn't surprise me at all. I think the historical context I've given here probably describes Carmack's life as well and is really relevant in understanding his statement.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#94

Post by MattGaiser » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 10:51 PM UTC

codegeek wrote: post #63

jacquesm wrote: post #33

Alternative take: in the hiring process education is often used as a proxy for motivation, when actually it only proves that once upon a time someone was motivated long enough to get educated, but it doesn't actually say anything about their present state in terms of motivation. A 'Do-er' is at least at present motivated, and educating them will get them to the desired combination of education+motivation in the prese…

I hired someone well educated from a Top Ivy League university but they had no motivation whatsoever. I tried my best, gave them everything they wanted (money, work style, tools, training) but they just wouldn't want to be motivated and we failed collectively. They were very smart otherwise and definitely could learn the skills. When I am hiring, for me the biggest things are motivation, curiosity and caring for your…

> I meet a lot of candidates who have no idea why they applied, what they want in life for themselves but are just randomly sending their Resume hoping it sticks.

The problem is that finding something isn't optional, so when your dream doesn't work out, it is just a matter of finding what else might accept you.

So many people, when asked about what they want from life, are essentially asking back, "what are my options?"

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#95

Post by unemphysbro » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 10:53 PM UTC

aroundtown wrote: post #89

This completely ignores the why somebody is unmotivated. I remember being beat down very early in my career. I took advanced math classes, could build compilers, loved embedded device work, wanted to work on more advanced things (operating system level, backend, devices, etc). The only people that would even talk to me were people that wanted web pages built. All because I wasn't fortunate enough to go to a big name…

how do you recover?

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#96

Post by wongarsu » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 10:54 PM UTC

theyx wrote: post #85

codegeek wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hired someone well educated from a Top Ivy League university but they had no motivation whatsoever. I tried my best, gave them everything they wanted (money, work style, tools, training) but they just wouldn't want to be motivated and we failed collectively. They were very smart otherwise and definitely could learn the skills. When I am hiring, for me the biggest things are motivation, curiosity and caring for your…

Everyone knows why they applied, but for the benefit of employers, we have created a society in which it is not acceptable to say "I'm only here for the money, I literally do not care about your company."

Imagine there are two applicants who are equal in every way, just that one genuinely likes the job and has the same goals as the company, and the other is just there for the money. It's not hard to see why anyone would prefer the first candidate. That's the one who is motivated and will go above and beyond if required.

As a secondary effect, applicants of course notice that they are more likely to be hired if they just pretend like they care. And if everyone pretends, the one person who says they are just there for the money is at a disadvantage to everyone else.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#97

Post by paulcole » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 10:55 PM UTC

whatever1 wrote: post #36

The educated knows that the thing that the CTO asks for is infeasible. Hence the lack of motivation. The Doer in his ignorance, will embark on a trip of endlessly trying satisfy his boss, thinking that they are making progress, but they are not.

If a CTO asks me to do something I think is initially infeasible, that’s my opportunity to try my best to figure it out not my free pass to sit and complain about what I was assigned to do.

If it really is infeasible it’s a win win. Either I figure out how to do something nobody else could have done or I end up giving the next person tasked to take a swing a lot of info about what doesn’t work and maybe they figure it out.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#98

Post by version_five » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 10:56 PM UTC

theyx wrote: post #85

codegeek wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hired someone well educated from a Top Ivy League university but they had no motivation whatsoever. I tried my best, gave them everything they wanted (money, work style, tools, training) but they just wouldn't want to be motivated and we failed collectively. They were very smart otherwise and definitely could learn the skills. When I am hiring, for me the biggest things are motivation, curiosity and caring for your…

Everyone knows why they applied, but for the benefit of employers, we have created a society in which it is not acceptable to say "I'm only here for the money, I literally do not care about your company."

I could agree if you're referring to low skill or some entry level jobs. For later professional jobs, this may be true for some, but a lot of people really do have professional career interests, and all things being equal, it's normal for an employer to prefer people who want to be there for more than a paycheck.

I've had a few glimpses of what it's like to hate your job and just be there because you need or want the money, and personally, I'm motivated by never wanting to be in that position.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#99

Post by wizzwizz4 » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 10:57 PM UTC

dorkwood wrote: post #80

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(The second definition is also wrong – it's true only for unit vectors.)

That's why I wrote "as long as they're unit vectors" in my definition.

I swear I double-checked the paragraph before replying… Sorry for the “correction”.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#100

Post by ironman1478 » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 10:57 PM UTC

whatever1 wrote: post #36

The educated knows that the thing that the CTO asks for is infeasible. Hence the lack of motivation. The Doer in his ignorance, will embark on a trip of endlessly trying satisfy his boss, thinking that they are making progress, but they are not.

John Carmack works on cutting edge technology, so he embarks on things that are already difficult and the answer is not known ahead of time. Now if you are talking about deadlines, then sure. It can be intuited if the deadline is unreasonable. There are problems out there where the answer isn't known or even close to being known without significant effort. A "Do-er" in the case is valuable because they are willing to go the distance to try things. Though I will say, its unclear why an educated person cannot also be a Do-er. Those are two independent variables IMO. I would say I'm a Do-er and I got educated so I could "do" more.