Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated • Hacker News Board

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#311

Post by twofornone » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 10:40 PM UTC

dqx wrote: post #288

twofornone wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>14 suspects in the attack are facing federal charges related to bringing dangerous weapons inside the Capito There hasn't been a single conviction related to insurrection or anything more sinister than rioting or trespassing to date. Don't get your hopes up. Further, note the misleading language used in reporting, "armed", "dangerous weapons", but not guns (save the two facing ambiguous "firearms related charges") w…

Thanks for providing evidence of a capitol rioter carrying a firearm. No True Scotsman I guess. Most of the rioters were armed. There are a couple videos of the riot if you don't believe me. You're moving the goals posts so that beating a cop with a flagpole until he's dead, throwing fire extinguishers, swinging axes, or planting pipe bombs counts as being "unarmed". Christopher Alberts was caught inside with a loade…

Your entire post is merely reiterating exactly the sort of misleading information that I pointed out in mine.

The point once again (the "goalposts") was not whether they were armed, but why they would stage an insurrection without guns. And it is an established fact that save for 1-2 out of, what, 300+? There were no guns. Because this was a protest which turned into a riot, not an insurrection.

>that beating a cop with a flagpole until he's dead, throwing fire extinguisher

The original articles referenced an officer being beaten to death with a fire extinguisher. Note that if you have been keeping up, they have all since been quietly retracted/deleted because the entire story was a fabrication. The officer died of a stroke within days of the protest, not from injuries.

>They had to remind them to only bring certain weapons to their peaceful protest.

This is pure speculation and its quite a stretch. The vast majority of participants weren't actually part of any of the so called "far right" groups (e.g. oathkeepers, boogaloo boys, or whatever the media's boogeyman of the day happens to be).

>"kill him with his own gun." He must be exaggerating

Yet not a single officer was killed so, again, not much of an insurrection.

>Damage estimates range from $1.5 to $30 million. Do you read the news?

From heavily biased sources. If you watched any of the livestreams you'd see protestors constantly telling each other not to damage anything. Can you find me any pictures or videos of damage on that scale?

>Jon Schaffer plead guilty to entering a restricted building with a dangerous weapon

Straight from the horse's mouth[0]:

>admitted that he breached the Capitol on January 6, 2021, wearing a tactical vest and armed with bear repellent

So still no guns and guilty of attempting to obstruct certification. Hardly an insurrection, and only one person. Where is the coup?

You have been mislead by political theatre and are spreading misinformation.

0. https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/lifetime-founding-member-oath...

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#312

Post by fleddr » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 10:57 PM UTC

caeril wrote: post #308

fleddr wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's ridiculous. Most retail and institutional investors in crypto are already KYC. The current value in crypto isn't solely in moving money, there's scarcity (Bitcoin), utility (ether), Defi/staking, NFTs, the metaverse, whatever. Moving money is a benefit, but the least interesting use case of crypto.

> Most retail and institutional investors in crypto are already KYC Indeed, because they're there for speculation, not value or utility. > there's scarcity (Bitcoin), utility (ether), Defi/staking, NFTs, the metaverse, whatever. Ok, I'll grant scarcity, but it's also part of the previously-mentioned end-run around the worst parts of the current fiat system. Ether offers no utility beyond token scams. NFTs the same, e…

Speculation is value and a utility in itself. There is nothing inherently wrong with speculating on an asset. In fact, if we're truly honest here, most holders/traders of crypto are mostly there to grow their wealth. This is currently the real killer app of crypto: spectacularly growing your wealth in record time, or the opposite: losing it all.

I would generally agree that most things built on top of Ether are useless, hype-driven or simply scams. But details matters. When the dust clears, I believe there to be a future for some current experiments in a more mature form, but I won't digress too much.

For sure I believe you can still go underground in crypto and dodge everything, but I don't believe it to be the killer app or highly common.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#313

Post by X6S1x6Okd1st » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 11:03 PM UTC

cwkoss wrote: post #310

X6S1x6Okd1st wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the bitcoin community is capable of making a change that large at this point, other ideological objections that they have against PoS aside. Another option would be continually adjusting the block reward to not over subsidize mining.

Block reward is effectively adjusted via difficulty retargeting every 2 weeks. The amount issued doesn't change, but the expected value of a number of hashes changes significantly.

Block reward is only changed on halvenings. Difficulty retargeting changes to try to keep blocks and therefore bitcoin emissions per unit of time (10 minutes) the same.

The issue is that there is now too much electricity & therefore carbon emissions being spent on security the bitcoin blockchain. If the bitcoin community could adjust this down for slightly lower 51% attack defense they might be able to avoid the pressure from outside groups.

But the bitcoin community has shown it's self unable to make changes or establish any consensus outside of what is already believed.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#314

Post by dqx » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 11:06 PM UTC

twofornone wrote: post #311

dqx wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for providing evidence of a capitol rioter carrying a firearm. No True Scotsman I guess. Most of the rioters were armed. There are a couple videos of the riot if you don't believe me. You're moving the goals posts so that beating a cop with a flagpole until he's dead, throwing fire extinguishers, swinging axes, or planting pipe bombs counts as being "unarmed". Christopher Alberts was caught inside with a loade…

Your entire post is merely reiterating exactly the sort of misleading information that I pointed out in mine. The point once again (the "goalposts") was not whether they were armed , but why they would stage an insurrection without guns . And it is an established fact that save for 1-2 out of, what, 300+? There were no guns. Because this was a protest which turned into a riot, not an insurrection. >that beating a cop…

I agree, most of the violent rioters were armed. It is well documented that organizers had to encourage attendees to leave their guns at home or in their cars (as you mentioned, several were arrested with firearms in their cars on their way to or from the riot).

> The vast majority of participants weren't actually part of any of the so called "far right" groups (e.g. oathkeepers)

LOTS of self-recorded evidence shows that isn't true.

"wait for the 6th when we are all in D.C. to insurrection [sic]"

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2021/03/24/capitol-attac...

We know many members of the Proud Bois were there (since arrested). The Oath Keepers even had their little logos printed on their hoodies! You linked to an admission of guilt from a founding member of the Oath Keepers, you...do realize that right?

> The officer died of a stroke within days of the protest, not from injuries.

Strange, the medical examiner disagreed, saying "all that transpired played a role in his condition." Hmm he was pepper-sprayed and beaten by a violent mob, only to die of a stroke hours later. What a cowinky-dink!

The other officers had no history of mental illness. After being beaten by a violent mob, their partners described them as acting unlike their usual selves, shortly before committing suicide. Another chance coincidence I guess!

The medical examiner said of Officer Jeffrey Smith that the "acute, precipitating event that caused the death of Officer Smith was his occupational exposure to the traumatic events he suffered on January 6, 2021." Are you really that gullible?

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#315

Post by dorgo » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 11:07 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #229

glerk wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Good. I never consented to capital controls, property confiscation, drug laws and all the other blessings that “democracy” has bestowed on me. Finally there might be a path to opting out.

hey, I appreciate your honesty - though if you care about those things, you should become more engaged politically.

maybe getting involved in a crypto project is political engagement.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#316

Post by Dma54rhs » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 11:28 PM UTC

joe_the_user wrote: post #103

cwkoss wrote: post #19

The idea of taxing cryptocurrencies specifically for carbon emissions is some mixture of naive, shallow and sour grapes. There are a lot of wasteful industries - crypto is a small slice of the overall pie and is arguably the most responsive to market forces. Make universally applied carbon taxes across all industries and let the market sort it out. I'm a crypto bull, and fully support greening our energy economy. Adv…

There are a lot of wasteful industries - crypto is a small slice The difference between crypto and things like agriculture or transportation is obvious. People need food and transportation. If crypto was eliminated entirely tomorrow, on average, no one would suffer - some would lose relative wealth but others would gain relative wealth. Unlike conventional financial markets even, it's hard to argue crypto provides an…

Gaming, fashion, entertainment in general - all wasteful without a good need, has to go, massive energy savings and carbon.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#317

Post by majortennis » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 11:32 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

it's a good hedge against inflation. A block chain can be fully accountable

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#318

Post by asdff » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 11:37 PM UTC

geysersam wrote: post #295

asdff wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western countries tend to subsidize the basic needs of the poor. I'm sure if it came to it and it became a big issue they would get some governmental aid just like with transit or foodstamps or housing or education or healthcare anything else that slips out of reach for the poor.

If we are going to decide some carbon emissions more essential than others. Why not just exclude them from the carbon taxation to begin with?

Because wealthier groups and individuals can afford to pay taxes that impoverished people can't? There are all kinds of subsidies for the poor today where wealthier people pay a higher price. There is precedent here for that.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#319

Post by asdff » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 11:40 PM UTC

fleddr wrote: post #280

asdff wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The behavior of these cryptocurrency folk is indicative that they don't care about the environment at all. If they did, there would be something like a carbon tax set up to pay for the externalities that are currently being caused until these underlying environmental issues are solved by some future technology. Since no one has any interest in cutting into their profits for that right now, motives are clearly not ali…

Nobody cares about the environment at all. There's zero outrage on energy wasting consumer behavior, say ACs, giant TVs, high-end gaming PCs, dryers, and leaving chargers plugged in. Likewise, there's barely any outrage on eating meat or air travel. Whilst I would agree that some types of crypto don't help in this regard as they add to the problem, it's truly very hypocritical to believe to be morally superior or to…

Consumer behavior is the wrong animal to fight when its these massive industries that are polluting the world, wasting our water, and things like cryptocurrencies that consume as much electricity as a nation of consumers. Unplug your chargers, stop eating meat, stop flying, and its not going to change much when factories are still polluting the air with fossil fuels and industrial agriculture is selecting the most profitable and water intensive crops they can because they aren't paying what they should for their water rights. I want significant change to happen and it means going after these signficant targets like industry and cryptocurrency and not me forgetting I left my phone charger plugged into the wall.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#320

Post by iszomer » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 11:46 PM UTC

dqx wrote: post #305

iszomer wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ..The US just elected a game show host president 4 years ago. ^ Was responding to this. He really _was_ an actor prior to becoming governor of California. Actor, media mogul, "game show host", why should it be any different? Even Michael Bloomberg served in politics as mayor of NYC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan_filmography

Yes I know. Trump was elected because he was an oligarch, not because of his political experience. Reagan had (comparatively) none of the wealth and real political experience at the federal level. He was not an oligarch.

> Trump was elected because he was an oligarch,

Can you source this or is this your personal opinion of him? I'm trying to understand why you're defining this as a purely oligarchal issue where there are many other such instances of oligarchism in history whether it'd be politics or tech/FAANG.

> ..not because of his political experience.

Well he's certainly no Reagan given his class(ism) progression or upbringing, as described on Wikipedia. Is that really the issue here though, because he lacked "political experience" upon entry into the presidency?