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It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

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Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#111

Post by OJFord »

kurikuri wrote: post #29
AussieWog93 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's because the educated don't want to just "do" , they want to be successful at it. I've actually observed the opposite. For a non-insignificant number of people, it seems like their university degree is seen primarily as a piece of paper that allows them to demand a high wage while actively avoiding mental or physical exertion.

> a piece of paper that allows them to demand a high wage while actively avoiding mental or physical exertion I’d argue that the piece of paper is more for a semi-secure livable wage than a high wage, with or without physical exertion. From my anecdotal subgroup, I’ve yet to meet a person who expects (let alone: hopes for) high wages (above $25/hr) as a result of their degree.

I've yet to meet someone with a degree who expects 'wages' or measures their earnings per hour!

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#112

Post by Avicebron »

davesque wrote: post #93

I think he's likely to trigger a lot of ire with this tweet. However, given what I know about his history, I think I know where this is coming from. Carmack himself did not finish school and was motivated early on to get involved in the profession of writing software despite lacking official credentials which entitled him to do so. I have a similar story and can relate. Therefore, I think what he's getting at is that…

I'm tired of people signaling themselves as "weird" kids, it wasn't that weird to like computers, there's this fetishization of being "weird", "aspergy", "autistic", that's so tired and sad. no it doesn't make you better or smarter, it's just normal, no no one is a superstar because they were that "hacker" kid, times change, money changes focus and boom, success, it's not smarts, it's timing. and for all the kids out there, that's what I want to impart, it's not smart it's timing, ML today, bioeng the next, maybe something else in the future, maybe "social studies" will become thing once you children learn that twitch is a neural net with concurrent nodes...oops ;).

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#113

Post by aroundtown »

wara23arish wrote: post #92
aroundtown wrote: post #89

This completely ignores the why somebody is unmotivated. I remember being beat down very early in my career. I took advanced math classes, could build compilers, loved embedded device work, wanted to work on more advanced things (operating system level, backend, devices, etc). The only people that would even talk to me were people that wanted web pages built. All because I wasn't fortunate enough to go to a big name…

How is your situation now? Were you able to transition into different work?

Pretty lousy but thanks for asking.

I spent the better part of the 7 years: moving for my spouse (they have a phd with limited regions to work in), helped various family members through health issues, then had a health scare of my own. Now waiting on a partner to have a surgery. After their recovered, I'll finally be getting back out there.

I'd still like to do software work on anything that isn't related to web pages. At this point, I'm not sure how to make that happen.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#114

Post by kaiju0 »

paulcole wrote: post #97
whatever1 wrote: post #36

The educated knows that the thing that the CTO asks for is infeasible. Hence the lack of motivation. The Doer in his ignorance, will embark on a trip of endlessly trying satisfy his boss, thinking that they are making progress, but they are not.

If a CTO asks me to do something I think is initially infeasible, that’s my opportunity to try my best to figure it out not my free pass to sit and complain about what I was assigned to do. If it really is infeasible it’s a win win. Either I figure out how to do something nobody else could have done or I end up giving the next person tasked to take a swing a lot of info about what doesn’t work and maybe they figure i…

you are the person I hire. I will often know there are a great many unknowns. I also may know it's not possible. But the attempt often yields its own value. Also you can very often sell a close approximation of the actual impossible thing.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#115

Post by aroundtown »

unemphysbro wrote: post #95
aroundtown wrote: post #89

This completely ignores the why somebody is unmotivated. I remember being beat down very early in my career. I took advanced math classes, could build compilers, loved embedded device work, wanted to work on more advanced things (operating system level, backend, devices, etc). The only people that would even talk to me were people that wanted web pages built. All because I wasn't fortunate enough to go to a big name…

how do you recover?

My career hasn't but I have.

Got some therapy, journaled a bunch. I eventually realized having an abusive boss or working for an abusive company is the same as having an abusive partner. Recovery is similar.

As for the burnout, that takes time. You have to learn when to work and when to walk away at the end of the day.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#116

Post by edgyquant »

jonwilsonmn wrote: post #58
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, hey, hey! You're stepping on my turf, there! Everyone knows that it's our (old people) job to say "It can't be done!" Younger folks are supposed to be "boundary pushers," because they don't know that it can't be done. They keep trying, until they give birth to beautiful unicorns. Has nothing to do with education, and everything to do with age and [lack of] experience. Disrupt! FTW! At least, that's what they tel…

Giving birth to a unicorn sounds painful.

But rewarding

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#117

Post by Jensson »

javajosh wrote: post #106
Jensson wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then you'd default to always pick the educated person since to you they are by definition a doer?

No, I have no opinion about picking people. What I do have is the notion that it's very easy to convince yourself that you know when you just have theory. (I have a physics degree, and that seems to come with the territory - there is an XKCD cartoon, of course, that lampoons the physicist considering some long-standing problem in biology or chemistry and believing that the idea they just had after 2 minutes would be…

Are you saying you learned nothing in your physics degree? You learn different things when you do stuff like soldering, but you still learn things when you practice math and theoretical problems.

The main value of a degree is that basically nobody learn those things properly on the job. So after a few years in industry the person with a degree now knows both theory and practice, while those who just worked only knows the practice and has a glaring lack of theory. And theory is extremely valuable, modern society cannot function without having a lot of people who understands the theory well. Not everyone needs it but some do.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#118

Post by xvedejas »

Avicebron wrote: post #112
davesque wrote: post #93

I think he's likely to trigger a lot of ire with this tweet. However, given what I know about his history, I think I know where this is coming from. Carmack himself did not finish school and was motivated early on to get involved in the profession of writing software despite lacking official credentials which entitled him to do so. I have a similar story and can relate. Therefore, I think what he's getting at is that…

I'm tired of people signaling themselves as "weird" kids, it wasn't that weird to like computers, there's this fetishization of being "weird", "aspergy", "autistic", that's so tired and sad. no it doesn't make you better or smarter, it's just normal, no no one is a superstar because they were that "hacker" kid, times change, money changes focus and boom, success, it's not smarts, it's timing. and for all the kids out…

It's easy to feel weird as a kid with less perspective over the world. I have empathy for anyone who felt they weren't like the other kids around them for good, productive reasons. Sure, thinking interest in computers = Asperger's is an immature way to convey this. But otherwise I think it's worth celebrating whenever anyone has two-sigmas-above-average nerdy interests, why not?

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#119

Post by bsanr2 »

m463 wrote: post #60
jacquesm wrote: post #33

Alternative take: in the hiring process education is often used as a proxy for motivation, when actually it only proves that once upon a time someone was motivated long enough to get educated, but it doesn't actually say anything about their present state in terms of motivation. A 'Do-er' is at least at present motivated, and educating them will get them to the desired combination of education+motivation in the prese…

I remember the joel spolsky hiring article. He wants: smart, gets things done EDIT: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/10/25/the-guerrilla-guid... on the other hand, here was the quote on choosing officers, which might be a different position altogther: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_von_Hammerstein-Equord#Cl...

I'd like to propose another dimension (or perhaps something that counts as a modifier to intelligence): confidence and cowardice. I would describe myself and my high school friends as, nearly universally, clever, lazy, and terrified. The difference between those who today find themselves in successful careers and those who don't is whether or not they acquired some measure of self-confidence in the interim. (If you noticed that this implies that such a personal quality is malleable - and further considered that uncontrollable circumstances might contribute to its shaping - well, yes.)

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#120

Post by [deleted] »

theyx wrote: post #84
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I meet a lot of candidates who have no idea why they applied, what they want in life for themselves but are just randoming sending their Resume hoping it sticks. Yeah, well, while I'm working on that I still need to put food on the table, so I'll apologize ahead of time for faking like I give a rats ass about a career long enough to get through the interview process.

Exactly this! I cannot believe someone is naïve enough to think total strangers will start caring about some company's progress, profits and reputation just because they are being paid minimum wage. Sorry, literally 99% of people who are seen as "do-ers" or motivated are only putting up a show to be hired and to keep their jobs. Being hungry and homeless is a great motivator. None is genuinely excited about your busi…

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