Live data from Hacker News

Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

npr.org

621–630 of 719 posts

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#621
post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You cannot use heartland institute as a source. If the claim is that it is leftwing because they are supported by the working class than the republican party is leftwing/socialist which is hard to take seriously. As for your question the easiest and clearest example would be Augusto José Ramón Pinochet Ugarte of Chile that was supported by the right wing forces in the US, including Milton Friedman. I would encourage…

I am happy to look at things from both sides. When I asked who are the rightwing authoritarians, I wanted answers that I could use to look things up.

As for Hitler, I believe he was left wing for the following reasons:

He pushed socialist programs like universal health care, welfare, government job creation, etc..

He was anti-established religion, including Christianity. He said that when he was done with Judaism, Christianity would be next.

His beliefs on eugenics and racial superiority had far more in common with other leftists of his time. The American counterparts on the left, for instance, including the founders of planned parenthood, wanted to prevent minorities from reproducing,

Hitler used the public education system to indoctrinate the youth into his ideology, a similar tactic of the left in the U.S. Hitler also encouraged/forced mothers to go to work, further undermining the nuclear family.

Hitler made gun control laws stricter. Hitler also supported abortions.

The only counter argument I've heard is Hitler was a fascist which is obviously right-wing. I don't buy this argument at all. Fascism seems like it could apply to either the right or the left equally.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's hearsay from Michael Cohen, Trump's disgruntled, disgraced ex-lawyer. Trump has disputed the claim so we have no idea who's telling the truth. We should assume Trump innocent until Cohen proves it. But we have Biden on tape and audio saying people aren't black if they don't vote for him. One is a rumor, one is a fact. That's my point.

Well he hasn't disputed the claim under oath :)

That's not the standard, it's still hearsay that you are passing off as fact.

Would you want to go up to Congress every time you were accused of something, especially when that Congress has gone after you in every way possibly trying to destroy you?

A baseless accusation from a disgraced lawyer is not proof someone is a racist. Please try harder.

The fact that this was your reasoning and all you could scrape up is a great insight.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#623
post #568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Conservatives want to increase the power of those government institutions that are the least accountable, and are most connected to the use of violence: the police and the military. That's just not true. Conservatives want to balance the need for police to enforce the law with the risk that the police acquire too much power. Also, conservatives recognize far more correctly than the left that we need military streng…

I'll skip over the theoretical stuff, and just skip to talking about the Democrats (whomst I hate). With Biden, you need to watch the hands, not the mouth. Biden only proposes stuff that the left likes when he knows it won't pass — and he has a couple of thumbs on the scale (Manchin and Synema) to ensure that they don't. It's a matter of optics. On the eviction moratorium, for example, Biden knew he'd be overruled, a…

I can't say I agree with you that Biden is putting on a show just to keep his party together, but I'll leave it at that for now.

I do actually think public health is a legitimate government concern. That doesn't mean the government needs to exercise authority to the fullest extent for every health concern.

The 2010 and 2018 flu epidemics both killed far more children than COVID has killed. Where were the child vaccine mandates, school mask mandates, and school lockdowns then?

Once the COVID vaccine came out, the need for government intervention was mostly over. The authoritarianism comes from the continued over-reactions and unnecessary use of authority that lasts to this day.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#625

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you wanna elaborate? I am interested

Sure. Angelina Jolie, Brad Pitt and any other celebrity do not employ the same nefariously data driven agenda on a scale that begins to come anywhere close to that of Facebook; They are not comparable in this context. Scale is a highly differentiating factor. A more genuine comparison would be to the likes of Robert Mercer, Roger Ailes, etc.

The scale argument seems fishy to me. If we agree something is harmful and illegal usually scale does not matter. You can be a local drug dealer or a drug cartel and both are illegal. But my Angelina Jolie example was more about the fact that even without Facebook young girls will compare themselves to impossibly good looking women since our entire culture promotes it: do the actresses in Friends look like real life women? No, they are in the top 1% of women (Phoebe a bit less but she is the "funny" one). Anyways if we wanna make this illegal the implications are huge.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes; another way of looking at it is that the US government represents the "dictatorship of Capital". Its job is to represent the interests of the capitalist class as a whole . This includes managing conflicts between individuals, firms, or industries that might otherwise threaten the stability of the system, even if they have to step on particular individuals, firms, or even industries in order to do so. That's how…

> Yes; another way of looking at it is that the US government represents the "dictatorship of Capital". When you consider that the driving question of the conflict behind the American War for Independence, and so essentially the founding idea of our state, was, "should aristocrats have most of the political power, or should rich businessmen have most of the political power?" this is what one would expect, really.

I mean, the bourgeois revolutions were progressive in the context of their time.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still fail to see how this makes the idea of trusting Facebook or any other social media company with my ID any better. What's clear as a bell to me is that, given how Facebook is known to behave reprehensibly , giving them more data is not something we should even be considering. It's a lot like saying "well now, this boat is full of holes, so rather than start patching them, let's just open several new ones".

> let's just open several new ones I see it as the exact opposite: the gambler's fallacy. "This time we'll protect our privacy! I got a lucky feeling!!" Doors open. Horse is gone. ID is actually smarter in this case because it will prevent fake accounts, which is a huge problem given their failures at policing the horrible things being done behind anonymity.

This isn't even remotely close to the gambler's fallacy. This isn't an issue of statistics, or probabilities being skewed 'this time'. Really what the question being asked is if you want to force people by law to hand more information over to organizations like Facebook. Legislation or not, Facebook and their ilk will abuse this data. Give it time, and so will any government. Your argument is basically "yeah, well it's so bad at this point we might as well not even try to stop it".

In addition:

> policing the horrible things being done behind anonymity

Anonymity isn't something you can just do away with and have a happy ending. In some parts of the world, anonymity is the only thing standing between people and their government. That's not something I'd like to see done away with. The Afghan people need anonymity now more than nearly anyone else in the world. As do the Chinese, the Turkmens, Eritreans, domestic violence victims, and anyone who lives in a world where being identified could lead to a swift, brutal death. What are these folks to do? Hide forever? If that's the result, then we are not just seeing social cooling, we're looking at a social ice age.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#628
post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and be completely rid of their influence on you This isn't true at all. First, I'd lose my connection with a lot of people because Facebook keeps buying alternative messaging services and social group management products. Second, the people who are on Facebook can organize real-world events that affect me. Facebook might even actively recommend more people to join those events. Third, they lobby Congress and state/lo…

Ah, exactly the trap I see so many people fall for! You would not lose your connection with a lot of people because of Facebook, you would lose your connection with a lot of people because of the combined decisions of you and those people! Facebook isn't doing anything here other than being convenient -- it's your friends and family making the choice (along with you) to refuse to communicate with people outside of th…

Where WhatsApp is zero-rated, people can use it (for free) when they can't even afford to send plain-text emails from their phones. The options are Facebook or nothing.

It's a social media company, nothing more.

I disagree completely. It's also an advertising company, an ISP, an SSO identity provider, a movie streaming company, a VR hardware and software company, and so on. And I already mentioned the amount of lobbying they do to get regulations and tax laws changed.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#629
post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cannot use heartland institute as a source. If the claim is that it is leftwing because they are supported by the working class than the republican party is leftwing/socialist which is hard to take seriously. As for your question the easiest and clearest example would be Augusto José Ramón Pinochet Ugarte of Chile that was supported by the right wing forces in the US, including Milton Friedman. I would encourage…

I am happy to look at things from both sides. When I asked who are the rightwing authoritarians, I wanted answers that I could use to look things up. As for Hitler, I believe he was left wing for the following reasons: He pushed socialist programs like universal health care, welfare, government job creation, etc.. He was anti-established religion, including Christianity. He said that when he was done with Judaism, Ch…

The extreme dictators like Stalin, Hitler etc are so far out that it doesn't really make sense to call them either.

Edit: It is also meaningless. I didn't like Trump but he was/is obviously nothing like Hitler or even Pinochet. And Biden is clearly no Mao. Calling either of them these things is just lazy and brings no clarity.

As for which is best/worst I think that is also a bit harder than it looks. For example I'm happy that I live in CA that is controlled by democrats instead of republicans. But honestly, I think one party control is bad whoever it is. We need power sharing and transparency. It is obviously bad when democrats are in control as well even if they pretend to do policies I support. And I don't always like what they propose, sometimes republicans have the right idea too.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> redefining terms and norms. AKA rhetoric and persuasive language. Likening something that looks an awful lot like a literally-against-the-law crime, to that same crime, is about as mild as that sort of thing can possibly be, and I don't think my post was particularly tricky or deceptive. Your position also assumes terms and norms weren't already redefined to make this stuff not seem awful. I know in the 90s my co-w…

> redefining terms and norms. > AKA rhetoric and persuasive language. I think you've just engaged in it. While norms and language are a little mushy, they're not meaningless. Human culture has long held traditions around basic mores that really don't change over time and culture. For example, most instances of homicide are bad and are codified as such. Yes, there is some wiggle room for rhetoric, but words have durab…

> You're equivocating a sample of a person's internet behavior with an actual person.

Either way, it's tracking what someone's doing. That the visibility isn't absolute in either case—though, thanks to phones and connected surveillance cameras and such, the line between "internet behavior" and "all behavior" is getting really blurry, no?—doesn't change that.

There is a lot more to this than "which links I clicked on the Google Search results", right? Where was I last Saturday, when did I arrive and leave, who was at that party with me, what was playing on the TV in the background, where'd I move my mouse while visiting that web page, what porn do I watch down to when exactly I stopped that video, what did I buy at the corner store last week, which vacation destinations have I been looking at, am I having an affair, is my spouse having an affair, how many kids do I have and where do they go to school, and far, far more than that. Is the creepy stalker somehow less creepy if they fail to capture as much information as they'd like? I do not see the equivocation you wrote of, in this case, at all, because I don't see the qualitative difference in the activities that you seem to. Both observe activity, much of which is commonly regarded as or expected to be private. Neither captures the "actual person", as you write, in any sense. It's the same sort of thing, yes? How is it not? How is one thing merely "behavior" and the other is the "actual person"? Both are about behavior.

If anything the Web giants see more, and more intimate, information than all but the most successful stalker or window-peeper, and also do it to far more people, and also store it forever, and also use that information to manipulate you (they don't even hide this part! It's explicitly their whole thing!).

If I were trying to unfairly or deceptively stretch definitions, as you accuse me, I'd be pushing for a lot more than equating the two. The web giants are much worse. My initial comparison is pretty mundane and probably more fair than is deserved, and I hope people would take the next step of considering how much they're repulsed by creepy stalking when an individual does it and realizing that the web giants are doing, just... so much of that. So very much. So how ought they feel about that? Like those whole companies the main business of which is being huge fucking creeps, protected only because... shit, I dunno. I guess it's not stalking if you do it impersonally and for pay? I have a hard time grasping what I suppose you're taking as the "accepted" or (surely, as you're fighting even gentle attempts to re-frame?) "correct" POV on this. It's like glimpsing bizarro-world, where all the colors are reversed and up is down and cats and dogs live in harmony.

> I'll again note that I haven't seen convincing evidence of the demonstrable, widespread, or significant harms resulting from tracking/retargeting. Instead your argument seems to rely almost entirely on a fundamentally flawed analogy.

A database of who was with whom, where, all their preferences for a variety of things, what they've bought since the tracking started (years ago), et c., is per se harmful. I'm not going to wait for someone to fall in the huge pit in the sidewalk before claiming having a giant pit in the sidewalk is dangerous. Obviously, it's dangerous. If someone proposes wrapping playground equipment in barbed wire, I'm not going to wait for someone to get hurt before saying "that's a really stupid, dangerous idea". Besides, identity theft (bank fraud, if you prefer) is a real consequence of all of our data being in so many places now, and automated, targeted recommendations, ads, promoted content, et c., have well-covered effects, which I would absolutely consider harmful—perhaps you do not, but there's been enough coverage of this for years that you can understand why someone might, at least.

> > > redefining terms and norms.

> > AKA rhetoric and persuasive language.

> I think you've just engaged in it. While norms and language are a little mushy, they're not meaningless.

Hardly. Shifting people's perspective—redefining terms and norms, and convincing people that yours make more sense than the ones they had before—is core to persuasive communication, among other forms of communication. You might as well have written "you're trying to convince people of things, and to communicate your point of view". Well... yes.

Besides, I covered the "meaningless" angle in my post. It's not that they're meaningless, it's that one must question definitions and norms to spot when one is being fooled, or has been misled. Say, "tracking what users do on their own computer isn't grossly unethical, it's 'telemetry'", or "sending your real name to a stranger on the Internet isn't batshit crazy, it's ordinary, provided that stranger owns a .com", or "sure, personalized ads are creepy [luckily, that sentiment hasn't been stamped out yet, and remains nigh-universal], but they're also normal and part of a legitimate business model", or "companies that deliberately promote some content over other content aren't in any way responsible for that content or liable for harm it may cause, in any legal sense, provided they take it down if a lawyer asks very nicely" or "it's not dangerously irresponsible social science, it's A/B testing on our social 'algorithm'". It's not a matter of meaninglessness, it's that a given set of definitions and norms is not necessarily the most correct, or most useful for a given purpose or context.

These things are shifting all the time, and some of those shifts are deliberately created by people who are trying to pull a fast one. If we have to accept their terms and norms, well, what, we just throw up our hands and declare ourselves prisoners to their language? I don't see what alternative you're proposing to using language as I've done, which, again, isn't deceptive or unusual. If the tamest and most transparent sort of analogy and comparison were off limits, then... what do we use instead? Those are central to how we communicate.

Post reply on HN