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Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

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Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#581

Post by _ivvf »

NoGravitas wrote: post #553
sreque wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you sound like you are probably a lot more educated about politics than I am, so hopefully I can learn something from you, but I think one problem in practice is that collectivist views always seem to end in authoritarianism. Even in the U.S., the unions that resulted from collectivism became authoritarian and corrupt in their own right, the teacher's unions of America being a prime example of corruption and autho…

> Similarly, collectivist organizations always seem to result in top-down totalitarian regimes when they win the government. Substantially, that's a matter of history rather than ideology. Collectivist organizations that aren't top-down organized tend to be unsuccessful in overthrowing states and remaining in power in the face of more authoritarian opposition. The fact that the Russian revolution led to Stalinism is…

I have to say, I find your "survivorship bias" argument novel, but also a bit ridiculous, considering that Karl Marx openly called for violent, bloody revolution:

“there is only one way in which the murderous death agonies of the old society and the bloody birth throes of the new society can be shortened, simplified and concentrated, and that way is revolutionary terror."

So the ideology claims violent overthrow of government is needed, but it's not the ideology's fault when the overthrow leads to a murderous totalitarian regime arguably far worse than the government it replaced? I don't know how you can seriously hold this world view.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#582

Post by fidesomnes »

epgui wrote: post #53

The comments section looks like a grade 11 class. Not everything is about “controlling” you, not everything is a “fake narrative”, the world isn’t out to censor you, and no, not every form of censorship is bad. Yes censorship is a slippery slope, but so is intellectual laziness.

You served yourself, well done. This whole narrative is fake and the talking head leading it is full of shit.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#583

Post by trutannus »

SavantIdiot wrote: post #513
Steltek wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Skip the trite cliches, what are you talking about? My driver's license, passport, whatever does not directly encode my relationships other than simple demographics. I'm not under an illusion that I myself am personally anonymous. I'm sure I leave enough breadcrumbs around the Internet but that's my (dubious) choice. However, force me to verify my identity, use my real name, or enter a phone number and I lose that op…

Every time I swipe my credit card, an intimate profile of who I am and what I do is updated. I don't see the difference between verifying my identity to use a service, and the thousands of other electronic activities I perform on a daily basis that succinctly outline what I do. This nonsense that one more organization asking for ID is somehow the straw the broke the camels back is decades too late. You say you are un…

I still fail to see how this makes the idea of trusting Facebook or any other social media company with my ID any better. What's clear as a bell to me is that, given how Facebook is known to behave reprehensibly, giving them more data is not something we should even be considering.

It's a lot like saying "well now, this boat is full of holes, so rather than start patching them, let's just open several new ones".

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#584

Post by kmonsen »

_ivvf wrote: post #283
kmonsen wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is obviously the right answer. There have clearly been left wing avd right wing authoritarians in history. These days in, western countries at least, most authoritarian are right wing. Trump and the conservative party in the UK being the clearest examples. I define here authoritarian as someone who is decreasing democracy and transparency. Not caring if they do it for the right or wrong reasons. Also cle…

[flagged]

You cannot use heartland institute as a source. If the claim is that it is leftwing because they are supported by the working class than the republican party is leftwing/socialist which is hard to take seriously.

As for your question the easiest and clearest example would be Augusto José Ramón Pinochet Ugarte of Chile that was supported by the right wing forces in the US, including Milton Friedman.

I would encourage you to look aside from your partisan lenses. Note that I do not in any way argue against that Stalin or Mao most likely should be considered left wing and were brutal authoritarians that was a stain on the world.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#585

Post by Permit »

sul_tasto wrote: post #428
Permit wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I want them to ban the business model of stalking people online and selling intimate details of their lives. When you say "selling intimate details of their lives" you are misleading your reader. I don't know if this is intentional on your behalf but it makes it really hard to discuss real problems when you obfuscate them behind quarter truths like "Facebook sells your data".

It is not misleading to say that facebook is stalking even non-users and collecting intimate details of people’s lives. Facebook is violating people’s privacy rights.

Then say that. Let's get away from "Facebook sells user data".

These are not equivalent statements.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#586

Post by dukeofdoom »

joelbluminator wrote: post #524
dukeofdoom wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The division seems to me leading more to a breakup of the united states, into smaller countries. If one believes in democracy, and local democratic will. Why would that necessarily be bad. The country is filled with red states on the inside, and blue states on the outside. Doesn't seem like the people in the middle are getting the kind of government they vote for. And the people in the blue states have to temper down…

It's possible but the economic and social upheavel would be massive. Not a good scenario for anyone I think.

I'm sure there were people walking around saying that in 1775. Yet Greater good prevailed, and US got its independence from Britain. Since its a Democratic Union, I hope it can be dissolved in a democratic way. Is the worry that each state would have fight to get independence?

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#587

Post by dukeofdoom »

el_ravager wrote: post #571
joelbluminator wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible but the economic and social upheavel would be massive. Not a good scenario for anyone I think.

Especially for the relatively poor red states that depend on blue state subsidy.

There are still some southern states that have massive poverty. The union did not serve them well. I can see how they would be better off on their own. Hawaii as well. And its not just about poverty. Hawaiians would like to regain control over their culture, tourism levels, and so on. King of your castle. Even if your castle is just a shack. Counts for a lot. Also cities like Chicago and Detroit experienced huge declines, because of trade with China, that mostly benefits California. I can see how they would like their own policies on trade.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#588

Post by Steltek »

megaman821 wrote: post #400
micromacrofoot wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the dismissive rhetoric that got us here. At this point we know that Facebook intentionally manipulates people's moods and behavior... and it's impossible for the average person to be aware of how they're being manipulated, because it's proprietary Facebook data. The algorithm itself is likely so complex that no individual within Facebook understands the full impact of it. They hire researchers to study the ou…

Everything around us is designed to manipulate our mood and behavior. * The Oreo's packing looks so inciting but the food offers nearly 0 nutritional value. * The ad for that new game looks so cool but my time would but better spent on almost anything else. * That car is so fast but it would be cheaper and better for the environment to drive a Prius. I would rather have the freedom to choose poorly than have the Gove…

You've listed things that are already regulated, in some cases heavily, by the government. And yes, specific things in those industries have been outright banned by the government. You can't buy Coke with cocaine in it. Ads can't straight up lie to you. You can't buy a car without seatbelts or headlights.

If your commercial business is to promote certain content over others, regulating that function is worth a debate, especially if it causes such a disproportionate harm to society. Is algorithmic curation with intent to cause addictive behavior actually protected speech? Or in other words, is the government allowed to regulate the time, place, and manner of that curation (not affecting the content)? The US has the broadest protections for speech and if FB fails that test, it's unlikely to hold up anywhere else in the world.

The purist would argue that corporations are allowed to do whatever they want and if society runs like lemmings off a cliff, they had it coming. A more moderate view could be that individuals should be guaranteed free speech but not corporations.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#589

Post by teucris »

inanutshellus wrote: post #440
teucris wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re getting downvotes by saying “it’ll never happen” which I find unfortunate because I think the observation that the Internet’s fundamental mode (“message”) as authoritarianism is incredibly interesting and worth discussing. The internet wasn’t created with this goal and yet it seems there is significant evidence to support this idea.

> I think you’re getting downvotes by saying “it’ll never happen” which I find unfortunate Fatalism is how Bad Things survive in a committee-government such as ours. :-\

Clarification: I agree fatalism is bad, but that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t have a conversation around the rest of the comment.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#590

Post by yodsanklai »

haswell wrote: post #335
yodsanklai wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do want Facebook harmed So much hate... Has Facebook really caused that much suffering to you? Seriously, just don't use it if you don't like it. For most people, it's just a social network where they post innocuous stories and stay connected with their friends.

As a thought experiment, apply the same sentiment to big tobacco. "Has big tobacco really caused that much suffering to you? Seriously, just don't smoke if you're worried about the resulting health problems." > For most people, it's just a social network where they post innocuous stories and stay connected This is where things go south. Rewind to the period of time before we understood just how bad cigarettes are for…

Big tobacco has caused millions of deaths. I'm yet to see any evidence that FB has caused harm.

For instance, do you have data showing that there are more antivaxxers because of FB?

Yes, antivaxxers discuss on the platform, so what? they would be discussing in cafes and at family meetings like they've always done.

I do believe we need to use social medias with moderation, especially teenagers. However, I really have a hard time understanding why people are so angry with social medias companies as I don't really see any harm. On the other hand, many people like these platforms and I don't think it's for me to decide what they should be doing with their time.

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