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Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

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Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#571

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The division seems to me leading more to a breakup of the united states, into smaller countries. If one believes in democracy, and local democratic will. Why would that necessarily be bad. The country is filled with red states on the inside, and blue states on the outside. Doesn't seem like the people in the middle are getting the kind of government they vote for. And the people in the blue states have to temper down…

It's possible but the economic and social upheavel would be massive. Not a good scenario for anyone I think.

Especially for the relatively poor red states that depend on blue state subsidy.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#572
post #548

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Somehow, I don't think that the best solution is to promote a governmental and economic structure where a massive central government spends much of its energy battling massive corporations, while they both collaborate to surveil, regulate, and control the citizens.

Sure, just let the corporations win. Lots of them already get 0% effective tax rate, some get billions in subsidies. But they will always want more.

Big corporations lobby big government to get big subsidies.

I'm for small, local government and small business. And to get all the corporate money out of politics.

But the trend is always to go big, if the law allows. It seems to be very difficult to reverse that trend.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#573

> Haugen will urge lawmakers to take action to rein in Facebook, because, she says, it won't do so on its own. "The company's leadership knows ways to make Facebook and Instagram safer and won't make the necessary changes because they have put their immense profits before people," she will say. Very curious to hear what those necessary changes are.

Not hard to guess, just take a look at Reddit.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#574

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> Require ID verification I'll pass on putting my personal ID in the hands of an organization that sells data as a business . No matter how many flimsy laws they put in place to ban selling my PII, you'd have to be born yesterday to think that won't just delay the sale this new treasure-trove of information.

I think this just goes to show how useful some kind of digital identity verification service would be. Giving your ID to a third party isn't that risky (as I hand it over to grocery cashiers all the time) but we certainly have the tech to do better. It would be great to have a system with a municipal agency where you sign up for an account at the DMV and then they will sign low-info attestations of identity ("this pe…

Where on earth (quite literally) do you live where you give your ID to cashiers in the grocery stores? Even in alcohol sales, these ID records are not kept. The clerks just look at the ID.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tracking everything people do isn't a "business model"—it's a crime. Could you point me to a law that codifies this as crime? I have yet to see convincing proof of widespread or significant harm caused by tracking/retargeting. These arguments always seem to rely on hyperbole and redefining terms and norms. No, I don’t work at FB. No, I don’t work in digital advertising.

> redefining terms and norms. AKA rhetoric and persuasive language. Likening something that looks an awful lot like a literally-against-the-law crime, to that same crime, is about as mild as that sort of thing can possibly be, and I don't think my post was particularly tricky or deceptive. Your position also assumes terms and norms weren't already redefined to make this stuff not seem awful. I know in the 90s my co-w…

> redefining terms and norms.

> AKA rhetoric and persuasive language.

I think you've just engaged in it. While norms and language are a little mushy, they're not meaningless. Human culture has long held traditions around basic mores that really don't change over time and culture. For example, most instances of homicide are bad and are codified as such.

Yes, there is some wiggle room for rhetoric, but words have durable meaning, and when people take the time to think critically about their usage, they can spot dishonesty, weasel wording, and hyperbole.

> something that looks an awful lot like a literally-against-the-law crime

> modern tech's business model is "being a gross, creepy stalker, at scale"

You're equivocating a sample of a person's internet behavior with an actual person. These are not the same thing. You're using that equivocation to draw your analogy of tracking and retargeting as being nearly indistinguishable from real world stalking, which is absolutely hyperbolic and disingenuous. People who are being stalked are in actual, mortal danger. It is incredibly difficult for them to terminate the observation and following of their real, physical person. They experience intense (and very rational) psychological and emotional distress as a result.

I'll again note that I haven't seen convincing evidence of the demonstrable, widespread, or significant harms resulting from tracking/retargeting. Instead your argument seems to rely almost entirely on a fundamentally flawed analogy.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I equate authoritarianism with police support. I'm sure others do as well, since the police are the enforcement arm of the government. Specifically support for their extra-judicial murders, civil asset forfeiture, creation of training protocols designed to encourage, or even mandate brutality against citizens, a culture that protects abusers, etc. People protesting murders by police are almost always leftist. The peo…

Are those positions really ideologically consistent though, or based on any underlying political philosophy? Were the “anti police” people at any of the protests for Ashli Babbitt? Were any of them any of the protest for the prisoners being held for crimes like “conspiracy to commit interstate commerce” after the January 6th riot? How many anti civil asset forfeiture people also believe in “red flag laws”? Leftist po…

> Leftist political philosophy is authoritarian;

That's just not true, though. Leftist political authority is about overthrowing the dominant existing authority (formerly, feudalism, today capitalism), and replacing it with something where whatever authority remains derives more meaningfully from the people governed. Marxism-Leninism was a strategic philosophy about using as much authority as necessary to prevent counterrevolution; Lenin's writings specifically refer to the state "withering away" as it is no longer needed to defend the revolution. Of course, in practice, the need to defend the revolution never ended, which meant the state could never wither away, which is, I'm sure, how a lot of Soviet bureaucrats liked it. On the other hand, there was never any shortage of criticism of Lenin from the left, starting with Luxemburg (supportive but critical) and Makhno (actually fought the Red Army) to Trotsky (more critical than supportive, killed by Stalin's agents).

I'd also note, with regard to your example of "red flag laws", that actual leftists are much more supportive of gun rights than liberals. Look into the John Brown Gun Club or the Socialist Rifle Association if you're interested.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#578
post #108

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Ahem what, anti-authoritarian mean "right wing" ? That's far from the truth. Left/right came from the French revolution, the left wanted the king death, king being the symbol of authority in the country.

That was centuries ago. Leftists today think you should take the jab or lose your job, because the government says so, even if the jab doesn't really work, and even if you still have to take other non pharmaceutical precautions. And the leader of the left today, President Biden, doesn't really care if he has the legal authority to issue the decrees he has issued, and has said as much, about the eviction ban he unilat…

I know a lot of leftists who would do a spit-take laughing about you calling Biden the "leader of the left today". Contemporary leftists hate Biden/Harris almost as much as they ever hated Trump.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#579
post #232

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> I want them to ban the business model of stalking people online and selling intimate details of their lives. When you say "selling intimate details of their lives" you are misleading your reader. I don't know if this is intentional on your behalf but it makes it really hard to discuss real problems when you obfuscate them behind quarter truths like "Facebook sells your data".

When Facebook’s ad network sells and places ads in front of a person because they are gay, pregnant, devout, or disabled, you don’t consider those to be “intimate details of their lives”?

> you don’t consider those to be “intimate details of their lives”?

I consider all of those to be intimate details of their lives. I cannot purchase that information from Facebook.

What makes this more confusing and frustrating is that there are companies that do sell user data to Facebook. Not in the handwave-y, roundabout way people that OP describes, but in the standard "I give you $$$, you give me transaction data" way.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#580
post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is complaining about it not being open enough. Time on site and amount of content you view is the driver of most of their revenue. Their business is fundamentally constrained by the number of users they have and the waking hours of the ones that are on the platform. To grow they can either recruit more users or build an engaging enough product to get their user to pick it instead of youtube/netflix/tiktok/work…

A good article about how some groups are dealing with the fact that Facebook isn't open enough (for them): https://restofworld.org/2021/homegrown-facebook-for-the-far-... Everyone has their pet issue with Facebook. For some, it's lack of openness. For others, Facebook is too open. Everyone seems to have an opinion about which lines Facebook is and isn't allowed to cross, and for every group it's a slightly different…

I don't care about them being too open or not. My issue is with them pushing sensational content because it's good for their bottom line. IMHO Alex Jones should have a place to post his male enhancement promotional videos, but if a platform is curating the content and decides to recommend it to everyone because it increases time on site and engagement then they should be responsible for that choice.

I have a consumer app and met with some of the early investors in the top social media companies. They all only cared about DAU/MAU, time in app and user growth. All of them recommended books like Hooked (https://medium.com/startup-grind/nir-eyal-why-you-are-addict...), to help us design something that's more addictive, or anything from BJ Fogg (https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbes-personal-shopper/2021/10...), who had founders of Instagram and Snapchat as his students. A few of them even tried to get us to hire the new hot thing, Dopamine Labs (https://www.builtinla.com/2018/01/11/dopamine-labs-boost-use...), who promised to have "AI" to get users addicted with custom notifications.

I used to think that behavioral psychology was bullshit (my GF studied psychology too), but being exposed to it in the industry there's no denying that some of it works. There's a reason why all headlines are clickbait now and all thumbnails on youtube and netflix are of weird facial expressions (https://www.avclub.com/why-does-everyone-on-youtube-make-the...). It turns out even the color of your app icon can make an impact on how noticeable it is, leading to more downloads and usage (https://uplandsoftware.com/localytics/resources/blog/tips-fo...)

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