Facebook Whistleblower Leaks Thousands of Pages of Incriminating Internal Docs • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook Whistleblower Leaks Thousands of Pages of Incriminating Internal Docs

#211

Post by elliekelly » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 6:02 PM UTC

parineum wrote: post #139

asdff wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Treat addictive social media companies like addictive cigarette companies. Lets see some huge warning labels about how mentally harmful it is to continue scrolling on facebook right on the first result where its unavoidable to see. Lets tax the hell out of social media companies to generate local revenue just like sin taxes. It won't be a huge change but it will be a great starting point and will come with revenue th…

> sin taxes How about we don't let the state decide what I get to do with my body (and mind)?

It’s not the state “deciding” it’s the state requiring compensation for the negative externalities created by the product. You’re more than welcome to smoke cigarettes if you so chose. But that decision isn’t made in a vacuum and it impacts the rest of us in the form of increased public health burden, insurance costs, secondhand smoke, etc. A “sin tax” serves not only to discourage the asocial behavior (we’d have a big problem if everyone made the same choice) but also to pay your fair share of the costs of your decision.

Re: Facebook Whistleblower Leaks Thousands of Pages of Incriminating Internal Docs

#212

Post by at-fates-hands » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 6:02 PM UTC

hunterb123 wrote: post #93

woeirua wrote: post #77

I think a lot of people are choosing to ignore that a lot of companies have done things in the past that were not illegal at the time of action. However, those actions were later decided to be made illegal because the behavior was deemed to be antithetical to our values. For example, Standard Oil did not break any laws in its ruthless consolidation of the nascent oil industry. In fact, it exploited the law to allow i…

To clarify, can you specify exactly what law you would like made? What do you want to be done exactly ? I would rather take the stance of feed algorithms and moderation logs be PUBLICLY available. Transparency instead of censorship.

>> To clarify, can you specify exactly what law you would like made? What do you want to be done exactly?

Honestly, social media issues are for the most part a parenting issue. If you don't have access to your kids phone, or know what platforms they are on and who they are talking to and what they're sharing, I'm not sure legislating social media is going to do much of anything. New platforms will pop up, more private networks will be started and suddenly, everything becomes to fragmented to really oversee.

I would create laws that have teeth and address issues like bullying, doxxing, SWATING and other ways people weaponize social media against other people. You start to put some teeth into laws where people are facing serious consequences for bullying and pushing people to suicide, then you might see some changes.

Re: Facebook Whistleblower Leaks Thousands of Pages of Incriminating Internal Docs

#213

Post by MetaWhirledPeas » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 6:02 PM UTC

mckirk wrote: post #182

asdff wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There should be some laws about using addictive patterns imo. I'm sure that's fine and profitable and coca cola would continue to like putting cocaine into their drinks to make their customers want it all the more, but we have laws preventing that behavior in the meatspace and therefore we can have laws preventing this sort of evil behavior with technology companies too. Tie it into website accessibility laws that ar…

The gaming industry would like to have a word... In a sense, companies are right now incentived to develop the most effective 'digital crack', because anything that hijacks the reward pathway of the brain more effectively leads to more profit. It'll be quite interesting to see how the public discourse around this will progress, since digital entertainment isn't as easy to publicly mark as 'bad' as drugs were. On the…

> The gaming industry would like to have a word

And I would like to have a word with them. They've been given free reign to turn our kids into absolute digital junkies (this is coming from a self-diagnosed sometimes-addict who realizes these kids are on another level), deliberately dangling carrots that reward 24/7 engagement in the activity.

> digital entertainment isn't as easy to publicly mark as 'bad' as drugs were

Definitely true. We need a way to differentiate between Super Mario Brothers and Mega Crack Force Gacha Legends Online.

Re: Facebook Whistleblower Leaks Thousands of Pages of Incriminating Internal Docs

#214

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 6:03 PM UTC

woeirua wrote: post #77

I think a lot of people are choosing to ignore that a lot of companies have done things in the past that were not illegal at the time of action. However, those actions were later decided to be made illegal because the behavior was deemed to be antithetical to our values. For example, Standard Oil did not break any laws in its ruthless consolidation of the nascent oil industry. In fact, it exploited the law to allow i…

[deleted]

Re: Facebook Whistleblower Leaks Thousands of Pages of Incriminating Internal Docs

#215

Post by idiotsecant » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 6:03 PM UTC

alistairSH wrote: post #194

hunterb123 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To clarify, can you specify exactly what law you would like made? What do you want to be done exactly ? I would rather take the stance of feed algorithms and moderation logs be PUBLICLY available. Transparency instead of censorship.

What do you want to be done exactly? Public algorithms, or at least some 3rd party review. Ban infinite-scroll on social media platforms. Require feeds to be configurable (users can set to "newest first" or "top picks" or whatever else). I'm sure I could come up with more, that's just off the top of my head.

These seem like awkward things to encode into law in a durable way. Laws are long-term blunt instruments, banning something like infinite scroll will have all kinds of unintended consequences.

Re: Facebook Whistleblower Leaks Thousands of Pages of Incriminating Internal Docs

#216

Post by shmatt » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 6:04 PM UTC

unsui wrote: post #185

shmatt wrote: post #36

There is something that doesn't sit right with me about the whistleblower. Yes, she is a data scientist which gives her many many extra points. But, she was a PM for 2 years in FAANG. Her actual scope of the what was going on in FB as a huge org, as she's trying to comment on (the "I want to fix FB" quotes from 60 minutes) Everyone I know who works in FAANG, FB specifically, and PMs even more specifically, really hav…

This is textbook ad hominem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem > attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself Question her motives or qualifications, rather than the claims themselves.

No. I want to see c-level, senior vp's, and around them start answering questions. Now that its in congress, subpoenas are pretty easy

Re: Facebook Whistleblower Leaks Thousands of Pages of Incriminating Internal Docs

#217

Post by asdff » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 6:04 PM UTC

hunterb123 wrote: post #189

VikingCoder wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry for being pedantic, but you can absolutely change the ingredients of a cigarette. There's a ton besides the tobacco. And you can breed different strains of tobacco to have more or less of some chemical.

My point was a cig always causes cancer because it burns tobacco, so you need a banner to warn users. A social media behemoth does not need to use doom scrolling or private algorithms to be a social media site.

My nintendo DS from 15 years ago gave me an eye strain warning every time i started it up and it doesn't always cause eye strain, only misuse does and I know that thanks to the informative banner.

Re: Facebook Whistleblower Leaks Thousands of Pages of Incriminating Internal Docs

#218

Post by Graffur » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 6:05 PM UTC

kentonv wrote: post #117

shmatt wrote: post #36

There is something that doesn't sit right with me about the whistleblower. Yes, she is a data scientist which gives her many many extra points. But, she was a PM for 2 years in FAANG. Her actual scope of the what was going on in FB as a huge org, as she's trying to comment on (the "I want to fix FB" quotes from 60 minutes) Everyone I know who works in FAANG, FB specifically, and PMs even more specifically, really hav…

> But, she was a PM for 2 years in FAANG. More like 15 years. I've known Frances since 2009 when she was a PM at Google, where she worked on a few products including Google+. She also spent several years an Pinterest which, while not technically a FAANG, is certainly a major social network that does lots of algorithmic ranking. She is definitely an expert in the topics she is testifying about.

I'm not surprised G+ wasn't brought up earlier. What a failure

Re: Facebook Whistleblower Leaks Thousands of Pages of Incriminating Internal Docs

#219

Post by hdjjhhvvhga » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 6:05 PM UTC

woeirua wrote: post #77

I think a lot of people are choosing to ignore that a lot of companies have done things in the past that were not illegal at the time of action. However, those actions were later decided to be made illegal because the behavior was deemed to be antithetical to our values. For example, Standard Oil did not break any laws in its ruthless consolidation of the nascent oil industry. In fact, it exploited the law to allow i…

The problem is, very often the law is unable to keep up, especially on technical issues. And even when it does, sometimes is way too late. Gates knew it when he asked to implement the AARD code - yes, they were sued, but they settled out of court and made the competitor's product irrelevant. A lot of Microsoft behavior in the 90s was just this: they could get away with it, but it simply didn't feel right.

Re: Facebook Whistleblower Leaks Thousands of Pages of Incriminating Internal Docs

#220

Post by akudha » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 6:05 PM UTC

woeirua wrote: post #77

I think a lot of people are choosing to ignore that a lot of companies have done things in the past that were not illegal at the time of action. However, those actions were later decided to be made illegal because the behavior was deemed to be antithetical to our values. For example, Standard Oil did not break any laws in its ruthless consolidation of the nascent oil industry. In fact, it exploited the law to allow i…

That is the problem of following the absolute minimum standards in life - we (the society as a whole) have accepted that as long as businesses follow the law, its all good. We've accepted that the sole purpose of businesses is to make money within the bounds of the law. While this makes sense logically, it isn't good for anyone in the long run, practically. Also remember that all kinds of unfair laws can be passed, if you have enough money to buy politicians.

We should strive for higher standards, but who am I kidding - we live in a world of "greed is good" mantra.