Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy • Hacker News Board

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#541

Post by NoGravitas » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 5:47 PM UTC

ddoolin wrote: post #235

_ivvf wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except what you are saying is not really true. Most conservatives want to reduce government power, not extend it. The left, on the other hand, universally wants to extend government reach. I would recommend reading "The Authoritarian Moment" which goes into detail as to how the left are basically winning: https://www.amazon.com/Authoritarian-Moment-Weaponized-Ameri... To quote from the book's introduction: "There are…

Conservative fear-mongering, recommending Ben Shapiro...am I really on HN?

Techbros are notably far-right. The hacker ethos died out when computing became profitable. This is just a case of people's views coming to align with their material conditions.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#542

Post by incahoots » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 5:49 PM UTC

whimsicalism wrote: post #479

incahoots wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe it falls under that umbrella.

So how is that distinct from text?

So for your question I would suggest reviewing this: https://techgeekbase.com/is-whatsapp-social-media-platform/

Texting short of knowing one's phone number has no "identity", is primary used as a communication tool whereas WhatsApp can be considered a "broadcast" tool and relies heavily on it's identity. Short of logs of the conversation for a very brief time, carriers aren't mining text data for advertising purposes or really at all.

Overall this is splitting hairs. If I send you a text message you're not going to suddenly be bombarded with relative ads, posts, etc to the subject we just discussed. I personally haven't used WhatsApp but after a brief google search it appears like an iMessage clone with the data going through Facebook's fingers with data being collected for whatever purpose they see fit.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#543

Post by prancer_or_vix » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 5:49 PM UTC

TameAntelope wrote: post #516

prancer_or_vix wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> engagement with social media doesn't directly create value for Facebook. Yes it absolutely does. They get value by showing ads. If you're staring at facebook for 4 hours a day, that's a lot more ads than if you log in for 2 minutes and then log back out. The cigarette comparison is being used a lot, so it's more like if Philip Morris was paid for every drag someone takes. Getting folks hooked, smoking a pack a day…

I think you missed the word "directly" in what you quoted from me. If Facebook directly made money off of engagement, people would pay for the Facebook service. The extra step of "sell ad space to advertisers" makes engagement an indirect money maker. Philip Morris doesn't make money every drag someone takes, that's exactly my point. It's different. Also, cigarettes are bad for you in any quantity. Social media is no…

> Philip Morris doesn't make money every drag someone takes, that's exactly my point. It's different.

I see. You're right that it was an imperfect comparison.

Philip Morris makes _more_ money by addicting its users. Facebook makes _more_ money by addicting its users.

I think social media being bad for you is a nebulous concept. I would argue that, since I stopped using Facebook and Reddit (and only use HN on work-breaks), I've been able to maintain my environment and thereby my well-being on an order that I was not previously able to.

Eating a peanut M&M isn't _bad_ for me, but if they were addicting, it would be a lot harder to consume a non-harmful number of them.

Stab wounds aren't inherently lethal, but enough of them will be.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#544

Post by _ivvf » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 5:50 PM UTC

alasdair_ wrote: post #287

_ivvf wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except what you are saying is not really true. Most conservatives want to reduce government power, not extend it. The left, on the other hand, universally wants to extend government reach. I would recommend reading "The Authoritarian Moment" which goes into detail as to how the left are basically winning: https://www.amazon.com/Authoritarian-Moment-Weaponized-Ameri... To quote from the book's introduction: "There are…

Conservatives, in general, are strongly pro police, judges and other members of the judicial system. These people are authorities (that ultimately use violence to enforce the law). Conservatives want to increase the number and power of these authorities. Thus, many conservatives are authoritarian.

That's not what authoritarian means. It doesn't mean "pro authority". It means "of, relating to, or favoring blind submission to authority". What does the support of police or judges have to do with that?

For a society to function, it has to have officials that enforce the law. If you aren't "pro police", then you are probably an anarchist. Let me know when you find a successful example of an anarchist society.

Conservatives aren't pro police. Sane individuals grounded in reality are pro police. And sane individuals across both political aisles are also concerned with police and judicial overreach. There is a balance to be found here.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#545

Post by adolph » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 5:51 PM UTC

lostmsu wrote: post #505

nyghtly wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whistleblower part is internal Facebook research showing that the algorithm is known to be harmful (for example, politically polarizing and hate-mongering) in it's current form. In addition to that internal research, she also revealed during the 60 minutes interview that Facebook used a "weaker" version of the algorithm during the 2020 election cycle in order to prevent disinformation. The weaker version was repl…

Just clarifying. Why is political polarization harmful?

I'm not certain but in considering your question I came to: Political polarization is a network of cognitive biases which decreases mental models' connection to the reality that people agree on more things than disagree.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#546

Post by r00fus » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 5:51 PM UTC

sreque wrote: post #522

r00fus wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amusing you seem to have some idea of consequences of politics movements - however, so-called conservatives (and libertarians), by unseating government power (which is the only organization large enough to challenge corporate power) leaves a power vacuum for wealthy/corporations to usurp that power. So anti-government-reguluation leads to a different flavor of fascism by corporate elites (all owned by the very wealth…

I'm glad you find me amusing, but I actually agree with you that the concept of power decentralization needs to be applied to corporations as well. I definitely don't claim to have the answers to how to accomplish this, nor did I think the U.S. founders would ever imagine the power that corporations would eventually wield.

Well, perhaps your considerations should take that into account. Many (not all - there are some authoritarian ones) leftists are about seeing the threat to any centralized power. As the saying goes, "power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely".

Currently, the USA in an oligarchy and that power is actually vested in corporations who essentially control the government because they've infested all the regulation agencies.

The best way to fight that is with protests, strikes (there are dozens going on right now - tens of thousands at picket lines) and transparency (FOIAs and investigations to see where corporations control the government and vice-versa).

If the founders never understood the power of the uber-corporation, then they must've been blind. Dutch East India Company was a complete powerhouse in that era that controlled many countries.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#547

Post by NoGravitas » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 5:52 PM UTC

wrycoder wrote: post #481

ddoolin wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conservative fear-mongering, recommending Ben Shapiro...am I really on HN?

You may not respect the writer, but what he is saying is demonstrably correct. The takeover of the Democratic party is not so well known (it happened fifty years ago), but there is a contemporary account [0]: The election of 1972 has demonstrated that the “democratization” of the Democratic party under the guidance of such notions has only served to make it less representative of the interests and wishes of the major…

You're citing a right-wing (neoconservative) magazine as your source.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#548

Post by r00fus » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 5:52 PM UTC

wrycoder wrote: post #536

r00fus wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amusing you seem to have some idea of consequences of politics movements - however, so-called conservatives (and libertarians), by unseating government power (which is the only organization large enough to challenge corporate power) leaves a power vacuum for wealthy/corporations to usurp that power. So anti-government-reguluation leads to a different flavor of fascism by corporate elites (all owned by the very wealth…

Somehow, I don't think that the best solution is to promote a governmental and economic structure where a massive central government spends much of its energy battling massive corporations, while they both collaborate to surveil, regulate, and control the citizens.

Sure, just let the corporations win. Lots of them already get 0% effective tax rate, some get billions in subsidies.

But they will always want more.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#549

Post by _3wrh » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 5:53 PM UTC

lostmsu wrote: post #505

nyghtly wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whistleblower part is internal Facebook research showing that the algorithm is known to be harmful (for example, politically polarizing and hate-mongering) in it's current form. In addition to that internal research, she also revealed during the 60 minutes interview that Facebook used a "weaker" version of the algorithm during the 2020 election cycle in order to prevent disinformation. The weaker version was repl…

Just clarifying. Why is political polarization harmful?

"This 2019 internal report obtained by Haugen says that the parties feel strongly that the change to the algorithm has forced them to skew negative in their communications on Facebook ... leading them into more extreme policy positions." (8:07)

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/facebook-whistleblower-frances-...

Although the above statement is from a group of European politicians, it's not hard to see the same story playing out in the United States. Take the Covid-19 pandemic, for example. The impact of partisanship on this issue is as clear as day:

"There's A Stark Red-Blue Divide When It Comes To States' Vaccination Rates"

https://www.npr.org/2021/06/09/1004430257/theres-a-stark-red...

"Ron DeSantis isn't anti-vaccine. But he has started standing shoulder-to-shoulder with those who are."

https://www.politico.com/states/florida/story/2021/09/15/des...

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#550

Post by janed0pecod » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 5:54 PM UTC

haswell wrote: post #335

yodsanklai wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do want Facebook harmed So much hate... Has Facebook really caused that much suffering to you? Seriously, just don't use it if you don't like it. For most people, it's just a social network where they post innocuous stories and stay connected with their friends.

As a thought experiment, apply the same sentiment to big tobacco. "Has big tobacco really caused that much suffering to you? Seriously, just don't smoke if you're worried about the resulting health problems." > For most people, it's just a social network where they post innocuous stories and stay connected This is where things go south. Rewind to the period of time before we understood just how bad cigarettes are for…

Except social media has a lot of upsides along with all the bad while the tobacco industries have literally none...only downsides (well if you don't count jobs created and all that but that is a low bar since any unethical thing can create job). But ultimately you're not doing a fair comparison here.