Live data from Hacker News

Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

npr.org

321–330 of 719 posts

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#321
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The premise that good ideas that make sense end up winning is unfortunately false. Many bad ideas tend to have a remarkably long half-life, and generally they can exhibit much greater virality at the network level.

You fight misinformation with more information, not censorship. Unless you're saying other people are so stupid we need to control their content so they can make the right choices? At that moment, let's just keep everyone in a jail cell so they don't hurt themselves. Who is the arbiter of truth? The government? You?

> You fight misinformation with more information, not censorship.

This is a flawed model. At some point, there is so much information that nobody can conceivably consume it all. A better mental model for this dynamic is that of pollution: can you fight pollution by making more "stuff", or at some point does it make sense to try and clean out the junk?

> Unless you're saying other people are so stupid we need to control their content so they can make the right choices?

Yes, to some degree. I think we need to be cautious here, and I acknowledge that there are a lot of examples of how this can go wrong.

But yes, yes indeed. If people were smarter, propaganda would not work. Alas propaganda works, and it works frighteningly well. There are also plenty of examples of this in both the modern world and in History.

> At that moment, let's just keep everyone in a jail cell so they don't hurt themselves.

Now you're being a little hysterical.

> Who is the arbiter of truth? The government? You?

This might shock you, but no, and we don't need an "arbiter". Getting to the "truth" is to a large extent a decentralized process that should involve many people and communities. I would suggest that a good place to start is with the scientific consensus. For everything else, it certainly becomes a lot more complicated.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#323

I like to imagine there are a bunch of Facebook Homefeed engineers out there who ran dozens experiments, tuning this-and-that, and found the ones that boosted revenue, and user engagement by X%. No one thought too deeply at _why_ some experiments were successful. Perhaps it was chalked up as "our new ML model is matching users to content they care about more efficiently". Then they shipped it, and everyone celebrated…

I worked on the things you mentioned at Instagram, doing the tuning this-and-that for about a year on a few different surfaces including the home feed. You are right that for the most part, people look at metrics and make decisions about what to ship, and only the best engineers and data scientists spend time thinking about the actual product. However, you're wrong about what metrics are important. Since at least ear…

Appreciate the insights. It makes sense that this class of metrics have made it into the decision making process, and I am glad it is happening.

The two concerns that come to mind without deeply understanding the problem is that: 1) Measuring a qualitative, nebulous metric like "wellbeing" (which could mean different things for different people) is likely very hard to do right 2) In my experience, things tend to move fast, and experiments often don't run for _that_ long. I would hypothesize that Facebook's negative effects on users is a compounding effect that emerges over the scale of months. Sure, you can leave a small % of users in a holdout group of your experiment, but how often is that getting revisited?

I do like the idea that there are teams out there that are taking it as a goal to positively move these non-engagement metrics. If FB is going to correct course then steps like this are a big part of that.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#324
post #164

This whistleblower may be saying some true and pertinent things, but overall it seems very apparent she is a leftist activist with a clear political agenda: https://www.dailywire.com/news/facebook-whistleblower-leftis...

You say that like it's a bad thing, rather than something she has every right to be .

No it means she's biased and we should evaluate if she has another motive because she's connected to the party now interviewing her who want to censor Americans.

I wonder if she'll be a professor or an ambassador for her service.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#325
post #45

I find it weird for a whistleblower to be so "lib", as the kids say. She said she 'loves' Facebook, and wants to fix it, not harm it. I don't want Facebook fixed and I do want Facebook harmed. I don't want the government to meddle with what types of things people can say online, I want them to ban the business model of stalking people online and selling intimate details of their lives. If the problem is Facebook choo…

> I don't want the government to meddle with what types of things people can say online,

This is totally off and a distraction from the actual problem, which is that Facebook is amplifying toxicity and division for profit, that they know it, and that they choose to continue doing so without any accountability. All this garbage about the problem being the First Amendment is just that: an intentional distraction.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who said it did? What this does mean is that it's highly unlikely the government is going to do what the OP suggested. Facebook et. al. are the honeypots of dreams for governments.

What the government wants to accomplish with the Facebook hearings, political grandstanding and blathering, is a harness, control to their political power benefit. They're playing a political game of conquest. There is no scenario where they're going to destroy it. As a rule, DC doesn't like power competition, and they absolutely do not tolerate it from the private sector. One of the dumbest things Bill Gates ever di…

Finally an honest comment about the nature of statecraft, governance and geopolitics. Bravo!

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will categorically say that I'll take unfettered corporations over unfettered government every single time . I can quit Facebook. Good luck quitting your government. These are not remotely equivalent things, and I bristle every time I hear someone suggest it.

> I can quit Facebook. Maybe. If I quit Facebook, I can't messenger my loved ones anymore and my Oculus is now a lovely brick someone bought me for Christmas. At a certain scale, the power dynamics start to look very similar. Governments still generally maintain a monopoly on violence, that's a big difference. Generally. I think we can consider "Deported because your employer has no further use for you" a mostly-gove…

> Maybe. If I quit Facebook, I can't messenger my loved ones anymore and my Oculus is now a lovely brick someone bought me for Christmas ... At a certain scale, the power dynamics start to look very similar. Governments still generally maintain a monopoly on violence, that's a big difference.

That's a HUGE difference. You are describing inconveniences but you still have a choice to give up your Oculus etc if you want.

You don't have the choice to "ignore" the government the same way.

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#329
post #45

I find it weird for a whistleblower to be so "lib", as the kids say. She said she 'loves' Facebook, and wants to fix it, not harm it. I don't want Facebook fixed and I do want Facebook harmed. I don't want the government to meddle with what types of things people can say online, I want them to ban the business model of stalking people online and selling intimate details of their lives. If the problem is Facebook choo…

> weird for a whistleblower to be so "lib"

We’re in a political realignment. Attempting compression to a single dimension will be misleading more often than it’s not. (Despite the current partisanship, the population’s ideological coherence is actually decreasing.)

Re: Whistleblower to Congress: Facebook products harm kids and democracy

#330
post #45

I find it weird for a whistleblower to be so "lib", as the kids say. She said she 'loves' Facebook, and wants to fix it, not harm it. I don't want Facebook fixed and I do want Facebook harmed. I don't want the government to meddle with what types of things people can say online, I want them to ban the business model of stalking people online and selling intimate details of their lives. If the problem is Facebook choo…

>I find it weird for a whistleblower to be so "lib", as the kids say.

There's like, a 0% chance she doesn't have a PR agency/person at this point. The rhetoric sells to centrist Americans and geriatric congresspeople. It might actually be kinda genius.

Post reply on HN