Is 40 the New 60? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#291

Post by h2odragon » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 3:10 PM UTC

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #281

honkdaddy wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think dying your hair is dishonest? I wear shoes with a bit of a lift because generally, at least in the west, taller men are treated a bit better in the workplace. Sure it's unfair, but it's certainly not going to change in my lifetime, so I happily play the game. I don't see dying your hair as any different from wearing makeup or attractive clothes. Humans are social and visual creatures, we find it easier t…

To me, it is dishonest; if the reason is to convince potential employers that I'm younger than I actually am. I have my own standards of Personal Integrity. I won't project these standards onto others, but I feel that I need to adhere to them. I'm also not particularly tall (5'6" -1.9m). I wear dorky shoes (at least, according to the fashionistas on HackerNews[0]). [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28579724

> I have my own standards of Personal Integrity. I won't project these standards onto others, but I feel that I need to adhere to them.

I have to say that is quite well phrased.

I think that's a problem for those hiring; in itself. I see it when I ask people why they won't hire the Amish or Mennonite crew for some job they'd do well. It's not about the cost, there's no doubt the result will be better; it's not schedule... It's just "these people are odd" and don't have the proper attitude.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#292

Post by ChrisMarshallNY » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 3:12 PM UTC

quadrifoliate wrote: post #247

Icathian wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it makes you feel any better, I did the hiring manager thing for 2 years before deciding I couldn't stand it, and the average age of my team was 55. I did my bit to not exacerbate this situation. My fervent goal is to stay an IC through retirement. Doing that successfully requires playing the game.

> ...the average age of my team was 55. I did my bit to not exacerbate this situation. I must say I am pleasantly surprised! Please accept my apologies, and an upvote.

> I must say I am pleasantly surprised! Please accept my apologies, and an upvote.

I concur. I know that you're "just playing the game as set by the rule-makers."

I'm in an unusual position. I'm not looking for work (and, after a few years on my own, I couldn't be dragged into the rat race with a locomotive).

That means that I get to say things like "Oi guv! That bloke's starkers!" Won't make me popular, and probably won't change anyone's opinion, but I'll do it, anyway. It's my nature.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#293

Post by gwbas1c » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 3:15 PM UTC

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #198

gwbas1c wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In my case, I was finally laid off, after a 27-year run at one of the world's marquee imaging companies (which I think was overbalanced by experience). I started looking around for more work, as I wasn't really up for retirement (which I was quite capable of doing). Are you "out of practice" in the job search? This comment ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28758320 ) states: > Delete the first 10 years of your…

I understand that. I also have gotten advice to dye my hair. I will do neither. That's dishonest. If no one values me for the skills and experience I have, then I have no interest in working with them (not "for," "with." -A big problem, in today's working world, is the attitude that companies are doing people a favor by hiring them. If someone hires me, they don't get me as a servant. I've worked way too long and har…

Perhaps you're misinterpreting me?

> If no one values me for the skills and experience I have, then I have no interest in working with them

I generally take the same attitude.

You don't have to list everything on your resume. It's not dishonest to leave out experience that's no longer relevant. You also don't have to dye your hair, wear platform shoes, or get plastic surgery. (Although Converse was trying to push platform chucks when I ordered some new sneakers a few weeks ago.)

All your resume needs to do is make you appealing enough to get a callback. It doesn't have to list out every single detail.

But, I do need to point something out 20 years into my career: A lot of development shops don't know how to work with mature developers, nor are they budgeting to hire someone with 30+ years experience. The "people" challenge of onboarding into a team where I have more experience than my manager is often harder than the actual work.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#294

Post by stronglikedan » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 3:21 PM UTC

cyberlurker wrote: post #107

mosburger wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

During my last job hunt a little over three years ago, I encountered what I think was some subtle ageism or at least discrimination based on family status (lots of questions about my family life when interviewed by the CTO and CEO, ultimately turned down because they didn't think I had the energy/disposition to be devoted enough to the company to put in extra effort when needed). I ultimately got a job at a better co…

Isn’t that technically illegal?

Illegal: "we think you're too old to work here"

Legal: "we don't think you have the energy/disposition to be devoted enough to the company to put in extra effort when needed"

Honestly, I'm surprised they even gave a reason. Our HR department has an email template that we must use, which is something along the lines of "we picked someone else, but we'll keep your CV on file, in case anything else opens up". You don't have to give a reason, so if you do, you're only opening yourself up to liability.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#295

Post by WriterGuy2021 » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 3:22 PM UTC

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #280

WriterGuy2021 wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If making $10 an hour as a retail employee when you have an advanced degree is what you were talking about when you spoke of the non-linear careers people have today...that seems a little facetious to me. I guess if I make some money panhandling, that's also a career change too....right?

> If making $10 an hour as a retail employee when you have an advanced degree is what you were talking about when you spoke of the non-linear careers people have today... Losing your job or failing to find a job in a field which isn't growing and having to make do with what you can is a fact of life and definitely an example of a non-linear career. There is nothing facetious there. That might end up just being a way…

Non-linear career to me means working as a web developer and then working as a mobile developer. Working as a web developer and then working as a plumber is not a non-linear career to me, but two different careers. You are using "career" in the sense of work life and I'm using it in the sense of occupation/profession.

Most people do not benefit from a change in profession -- especially if you are a highly trained specialist.

Getting knocked out of your life-long profession is not something most people want to experience. My original post was about this and what happens to people when they find themselves in this situation.

It's harder on some than it is on other. You seem to be a highly resilient and optimistic fellow so I'm sure this issue is not as much a concern to you as it is to some other kinds of people.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#296

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 3:26 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #73

SkipperCat wrote: post #33

40 is not the new 60. Not even close. At 40, I've done some of the best work I've ever done and my pay has been better than ever. I'm 52 now and the trend has only gotten better. Why? Its because at 40, I had a much deeper understanding of the tech, I understood of the whole business process and I had the maturity to deal with people in a productive way. You won't find all of those in a 25 year old developer. The onl…

>At 40, I've done some of the best work I've ever done [...] Its because at 40, I had a much deeper understanding of the tech, The blog post isn't about self-reported cognitive ability getting stronger (or not declining). It's about the job marketplace . Maybe it's instructive to compare/contrast different professional careers that depend on mental abilities and how age affects marketability: - computer programming :…

[deleted]

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#297

Post by stooliepidgin » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 3:27 PM UTC

jnorthrop wrote: post #127

jasode wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>At 40, I've done some of the best work I've ever done [...] Its because at 40, I had a much deeper understanding of the tech, The blog post isn't about self-reported cognitive ability getting stronger (or not declining). It's about the job marketplace . Maybe it's instructive to compare/contrast different professional careers that depend on mental abilities and how age affects marketability: - computer programming :…

I agree with your sentiment. I was 51 when I last applied for a job at a new company. Initially I was getting very little interest in my resume. Then I cut out the first 10 years of my career from my resume (and LinkedIn), and downgraded the oldest position listed from a Senior Lead to just a developer -- essentially making me appear 40 instead of 50. Within a couple of weeks I started getting responses. And it is no…

Ageism is real. It's not some sour grapes of under-performers who let their skills decline, or move or think at a dotard pace. It's essentially "We don't want anyone old because old = bad, new = good."

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#298

Post by mosburger » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 3:27 PM UTC

stronglikedan wrote: post #294

cyberlurker wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t that technically illegal?

Illegal: "we think you're too old to work here" Legal: "we don't think you have the energy/disposition to be devoted enough to the company to put in extra effort when needed" Honestly, I'm surprised they even gave a reason. Our HR department has an email template that we must use, which is something along the lines of "we picked someone else, but we'll keep your CV on file, in case anything else opens up". You don't…

Yeah honestly I was surprised too... it was a while ago, so I don't recall if I asked for the reason, or if they volunteered it.

Like I said, I personally see it as dodging a bullet. I probably didn't want to work in that kind of environment anyway. But there may be other people with different situations than mine who would've been rightly miffed by it.

I'm pretty privileged as things go, so I tend to not complain a lot about ageism and discrimination based on family status because there are a lot of folks who have it far worse than I do (even though I recognize it as a legit problem and feel like I've seen it firsthand). This company sorta tipped their hand without saying anything illegal.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#299

Post by _moof » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 3:27 PM UTC

jnorthrop wrote: post #127

jasode wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>At 40, I've done some of the best work I've ever done [...] Its because at 40, I had a much deeper understanding of the tech, The blog post isn't about self-reported cognitive ability getting stronger (or not declining). It's about the job marketplace . Maybe it's instructive to compare/contrast different professional careers that depend on mental abilities and how age affects marketability: - computer programming :…

I agree with your sentiment. I was 51 when I last applied for a job at a new company. Initially I was getting very little interest in my resume. Then I cut out the first 10 years of my career from my resume (and LinkedIn), and downgraded the oldest position listed from a Senior Lead to just a developer -- essentially making me appear 40 instead of 50. Within a couple of weeks I started getting responses. And it is no…

I was told it's unusual to include more than ten years of work history on your resume in most fields. So I stop at ten years now and don't include dates on my degrees, and I haven't had any trouble. It helps that I've somewhat deliberately kept learning new things at every job (otherwise I get bored!).

And of course it's BS that this is necessary. But until the entire culture shifts I'll just keep doing what I'm doing and then telling people how old I am after I've signed the offer.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#300

Post by joelbluminator » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 3:28 PM UTC

lanstin wrote: post #279

joelbluminator wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But still, what is your added level in say Go over a 35 year old who does Go for 5 years already? Wouldn't it have been better to just stick to one or two techs throughout your career?

Better in what way? Only in ways that make people old rather than ways that make people young. Here is a repeatable path to security. And say I am only just as good as the newbie in go. Isn’t that fine? I am seeking the pleasures of learning and learning with other smart people, not trying to win a contest. My method to do that is find problems, without a recipe answer, for technology problems that my employers are f…

> And say I am only just as good as the newbie in go. Isn’t that fine?

Depends on how expensive you are, what the market is like, how well you compensate in other areas (people skills, analytical thought etc) but all in all the market will prefer the 35 year old because our industry is somewhat shitty and ageist. It is what it is. However you will have a very strong network for having worked so many years so you can probably easily overcome this.