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Is 40 the New 60?

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Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#241

Post by WriterGuy2021 »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #232
WriterGuy2021 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a concrete example. There was a guy that had a PhD and worked for big pharma as a researcher all his life. The company he was working for downsized and he was left unemployed at 54. He looked for another position somewhere else, but he could not find a position at his pervious level of seniority: he had fallen off the career ladder. He was thus stuck in a strange limbo: he was capable of doing things below his…

> I could also tell you about a guy that had a masters degree in chemical engineering working at Best Buy alongside me when I was in college. I've met so many people in my life that have not been privy to the dynamically lateral career system you seem to be aware of. Well he obviously was. He was working at Best Buy.

If making $10 an hour as a retail employee when you have an advanced degree is what you were talking about when you spoke of the non-linear careers people have today...that seems a little facetious to me. I guess if I make some money panhandling, that's also a career change too....right?

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#242

Post by mooreds »

cameronh90 wrote: post #197
mooreds wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two options: * Ask why they keep coming? Maybe you aren't understanding their question, they want to build the relationship, or it's a really risky operation and they don't want to undertake it alone. This might be worth digging into. * Write the answer down to the questions (wiki, internal doc, whatever). When they ask, point them to what you've written down. Will still take some time and interrupt you, but hopefull…

Who reads though? We had a build prerequisite check that output "error: package xxx is out of date, run sudo apt upgrade - see wiki.local/XXX for more details" They still copied the error to me and asked what to do. I said follow the instructions in the message. They said cool thanks and did so.

Did they do that once or multiple times?

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#243

Post by mooreds »

mnsc wrote: post #77
mooreds wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two options: * Ask why they keep coming? Maybe you aren't understanding their question, they want to build the relationship, or it's a really risky operation and they don't want to undertake it alone. This might be worth digging into. * Write the answer down to the questions (wiki, internal doc, whatever). When they ask, point them to what you've written down. Will still take some time and interrupt you, but hopefull…

About that first point, that to me seem like a genuine and emphatic thing to do but I want to flag that this has the potential to go into the "soft" areas where feelings exist. For a crash course in "feelings and needs" read non-violent communication to be appropriately humbled by how hard (but important) this skill is.

I agree. I have a whole blog[0] about what I wish I had known when I was a new developer. Those "soft skills" (which are actually pretty hard) come up again and again as something I wish I'd known earlier.

0: https://letterstoanewdeveloper.com/

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#244

Post by cyberge99 »

jnorthrop wrote: post #127
jasode wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>At 40, I've done some of the best work I've ever done [...] Its because at 40, I had a much deeper understanding of the tech, The blog post isn't about self-reported cognitive ability getting stronger (or not declining). It's about the job marketplace . Maybe it's instructive to compare/contrast different professional careers that depend on mental abilities and how age affects marketability: - computer programming :…

I agree with your sentiment. I was 51 when I last applied for a job at a new company. Initially I was getting very little interest in my resume. Then I cut out the first 10 years of my career from my resume (and LinkedIn), and downgraded the oldest position listed from a Senior Lead to just a developer -- essentially making me appear 40 instead of 50. Within a couple of weeks I started getting responses. And it is no…

I put them under a Projects/Misc/Other heading without a date (though the tech may out you).

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#245

Post by lanstin »

bacro wrote: post #54
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> I've learned to be less of a jerk to people and how to communicate. Ahhhhhhhhhhhh.............. But that bit is so hard ! :-)

Indeed, I keep being a jerk to junior developers that constantly comes to me with the same questions after I explained to them 10000 times and they say "Yeaah, I got it now". It is so hard to avoid being a jerk. What should I do?

Make your rate of responding be proportional to their demonstrated ability via questions. At my last job, there was one person that would always ask, not simply new questions but new types questions. I would immediately get back to her. There was a group of people that would always ask a new question, generally either due to a lack of understanding of something or it was a real interesting bug. Them I would return to at the next break. Then there are the people that have no interest in learning how to fish and just wanted a fish. I would slow down responses quite a lot; when they escalate they are introduced to the ticketing system or Jira for assigning fishing tasks to the team.

There are people with such interesting questions I am happy to hear them and talk them they even from three jobs ago. I cultivate them, as these questions extend my detailed knowledge farther than it otherwise would extend.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#246

Post by honkdaddy »

tlamponi wrote: post #187
Icathian wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After a thousand threads on why tech hiring is hard, I don't think I need to re-hash that getting signal from noise is complex and imperfect. Out of the two signals, "this person was successful at 8 different companies" versus "this person stuck in one place for almost three decades", which do you imagine is going to get hired? It isn't ageism, again go read the rest of this thread. It's the nature of making yourself…

> After a thousand threads on why tech hiring is hard, I don't think I need to re-hash that getting signal from noise is complex and imperfect. Out of the two signals, "this person was successful at 8 different companies" versus "this person stuck in one place for almost three decades", which do you imagine is going to get hired? One can also take this as: "this person jumps jobs often, everything I invest in them wi…

> I.e., the answer to "why switch so often?" or "why stuck for so long and why now?" are key.

This is really the key.

As another anecdotal datapoint to add to this thread, I've held three SWE positions over the past four years and will be starting my fourth, at Google, next month. Naturally the recruiters and hiring managers asked about the short stints at each company, but given that my reasons for each departure were reasonable (company acquisition, COVID, and location), they didn't have any objections.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#247

Post by quadrifoliate »

Icathian wrote: post #211
quadrifoliate wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's a pretty well-known truth of our industry There are a lot of bad things about our industry, repeating the stereotypes that lead to them is still harmful. Which brings me to... > I'm not sure what about that you object to so strongly. Simple: If you were in a a position where you were screening resumes, I think you would rule out people with long tenures purely on the basis that the tenure was long. I am saying…

If it makes you feel any better, I did the hiring manager thing for 2 years before deciding I couldn't stand it, and the average age of my team was 55. I did my bit to not exacerbate this situation. My fervent goal is to stay an IC through retirement. Doing that successfully requires playing the game.

> ...the average age of my team was 55. I did my bit to not exacerbate this situation.

I must say I am pleasantly surprised! Please accept my apologies, and an upvote.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#248

Post by lanstin »

cameronh90 wrote: post #197
mooreds wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two options: * Ask why they keep coming? Maybe you aren't understanding their question, they want to build the relationship, or it's a really risky operation and they don't want to undertake it alone. This might be worth digging into. * Write the answer down to the questions (wiki, internal doc, whatever). When they ask, point them to what you've written down. Will still take some time and interrupt you, but hopefull…

Who reads though? We had a build prerequisite check that output "error: package xxx is out of date, run sudo apt upgrade - see wiki.local/XXX for more details" They still copied the error to me and asked what to do. I said follow the instructions in the message. They said cool thanks and did so.

You could have a whole career of actually reading the error logs in email chains and then just saying that error as a normal English email.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#249

Post by everdrive »

It's not as if the tech careers you get when you're 35 are generally that amazing, they just pay better. Assume that you will not continue to make more money as you age in tech, and plan your finances accordingly.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#250

Post by travisgriggs »

jasode wrote: post #73
SkipperCat wrote: post #33

40 is not the new 60. Not even close. At 40, I've done some of the best work I've ever done and my pay has been better than ever. I'm 52 now and the trend has only gotten better. Why? Its because at 40, I had a much deeper understanding of the tech, I understood of the whole business process and I had the maturity to deal with people in a productive way. You won't find all of those in a 25 year old developer. The onl…

>At 40, I've done some of the best work I've ever done [...] Its because at 40, I had a much deeper understanding of the tech, The blog post isn't about self-reported cognitive ability getting stronger (or not declining). It's about the job marketplace . Maybe it's instructive to compare/contrast different professional careers that depend on mental abilities and how age affects marketability: - computer programming :…

Is it because large swaths of the industry use non experienced people to do the hiring? Experience values experience. Lack of experience values perceived longevity, ability to pay less, and zeal.

Also, age is not experience. Age is usually an ingredient to experience (though some make use of less age than others to gain experience). But in and of itself, it does not create useful experience (maybe wisdom is the word we’re looking for here). I’ve worked with many older engineers who hadn’t gained useful experience. They’re still making the same mistakes they did years ago. And I’ve worked with younger engineers who I can tell are going to be old dinosaurs from the get go. They like the high paying career and the problem solving aspect, but the desire to evolve and improve their game play just isn’t there.

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