Is 40 the New 60? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#261

Post by InvaderFizz » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 2:36 PM UTC

jnorthrop wrote: post #127

jasode wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>At 40, I've done some of the best work I've ever done [...] Its because at 40, I had a much deeper understanding of the tech, The blog post isn't about self-reported cognitive ability getting stronger (or not declining). It's about the job marketplace . Maybe it's instructive to compare/contrast different professional careers that depend on mental abilities and how age affects marketability: - computer programming :…

I agree with your sentiment. I was 51 when I last applied for a job at a new company. Initially I was getting very little interest in my resume. Then I cut out the first 10 years of my career from my resume (and LinkedIn), and downgraded the oldest position listed from a Senior Lead to just a developer -- essentially making me appear 40 instead of 50. Within a couple of weeks I started getting responses. And it is no…

I've taken largely the same approach. Soon to be pushing 40, but my LinkedIn makes it look like I'm about 30 due to dropping off early career jobs.

I also strategically drop items from my resume that I no longer wish to touch. Cuts down on recruiter spam significantly in the process.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#262

Post by gilbetron » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 2:36 PM UTC

brandall10 wrote: post #136

jasode wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>At 40, I've done some of the best work I've ever done [...] Its because at 40, I had a much deeper understanding of the tech, The blog post isn't about self-reported cognitive ability getting stronger (or not declining). It's about the job marketplace . Maybe it's instructive to compare/contrast different professional careers that depend on mental abilities and how age affects marketability: - computer programming :…

As mentioned elsewhere in the this chat, I'm a 45 yo principal engineer at my current company who has seen nothing but an increase in attention from recruiters since turning 40. I'm also directly involved in hiring for my team, having helped add 15 members over the last year, working directly w/ the director to review all resumes, handling maybe 30% of the screens, and usually the veto vote. We've interviewed a numbe…

I'm a 50+ staff eng, and I agree that I'm getting as much interest as ever from recruiters. Just gotta stay current and never take on the attitude I see from older engineers of "this new crap is just what we used to do back in the day". New stuff is different and has value, just accept it and stop whining.

As for resumes, I personally don't get the page limit, since I love long resumes with detail when I'm evaluating engineers, but understand the marketplace absolutely hates them. I don't know if it is HR or auto pre-filters or the hiring managers, but it doesn't matter. All I know is that when looking for a job most recently, I had a 3+ page resume and was getting some, but not many, hits. Then, as an experiment, I trimmed it down to a single page, making it ridiculously thin in my judgement, ran it through the various sites that judge the resume based on keywords, and came up with a custom resume (lightly so) for each posting. I suddenly jumped up to a 75%+ call back rate.

Keep your resume to 1 page, cut out the details on the old jobs unless it is really interesting, and basically just list the tech you know.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#263

Post by lanstin » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 2:37 PM UTC

drclau wrote: post #85

bacro wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, I keep being a jerk to junior developers that constantly comes to me with the same questions after I explained to them 10000 times and they say "Yeaah, I got it now". It is so hard to avoid being a jerk. What should I do?

Write a knowledge base, or Wiki, or FAQ, or whatever. A place where they can re-read the same thing 10000 times. Maybe add some examples too, in cases where it makes sense (i.e. code). Even better, make them write it, and you just review it. It'll help them learn faster. If you have a junior who already understand problem X, ask them to explain it to someone else too. It'll help solidify the knowledge, and at the sam…

One approach I have been experimenting with is copied from surgeons: see one, do one, teach one. We have documents and so on, but for novel Devops-ish rocedures, I will document it, but then pick some to watch on screen share, then the next time they will drive, and I will watch their screen share, then the next time they will demo to another person. It is great for tasks in between we do it every day” and “we’ve never done it before”. Also it builds confidence (and often the docs are better after the train gets a good writer as the see one person).

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#264

Post by honkdaddy » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 2:37 PM UTC

WriterGuy2021 wrote: post #172

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know. At some point, it's also a question of perception and attitude. Falling off the career ladder is in itself a strange idea. As I get older, it seems to me that the concept has little actual reality. Few people have linear career nowadays. At some point, things tend to take a turn for the unexpected. It can be failing to reach the position you were aiming for or suddenly finding yourself unemployed. It ca…

Here's a concrete example. There was a guy that had a PhD and worked for big pharma as a researcher all his life. The company he was working for downsized and he was left unemployed at 54. He looked for another position somewhere else, but he could not find a position at his pervious level of seniority: he had fallen off the career ladder. He was thus stuck in a strange limbo: he was capable of doing things below his…

At 54 with a PhD, is there a reason he wasn't looking for management or leadership positions instead?

I know very little about pharma, but my guess would be that domain knowledge and industry connections would be super valuable.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#265

Post by lanstin » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 2:39 PM UTC

bacro wrote: post #135

dkdbejwi383 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop giving them the full answer and only lead them part way there. They will then (hopefully) learn how to look up documentation for themselves. Essentially "teach a man to fish". They don't necessarily want to know the answer, but they want to know how you know the answer.

That is what I am trying unsuccessfully to do. I made a sugestion the other day and did not write the code. He understood the idea but implemented poorly. When I asked why did he implement it that way, he said "it was your suggestion". I tried very very hard to not explode here...

That is what code review is for. It shouldn’t be personal, it’s just here these specific changes will make it more robust or easier to understand or whatever.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#266

Post by laichzeit0 » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 2:39 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #73

SkipperCat wrote: post #33

40 is not the new 60. Not even close. At 40, I've done some of the best work I've ever done and my pay has been better than ever. I'm 52 now and the trend has only gotten better. Why? Its because at 40, I had a much deeper understanding of the tech, I understood of the whole business process and I had the maturity to deal with people in a productive way. You won't find all of those in a 25 year old developer. The onl…

>At 40, I've done some of the best work I've ever done [...] Its because at 40, I had a much deeper understanding of the tech, The blog post isn't about self-reported cognitive ability getting stronger (or not declining). It's about the job marketplace . Maybe it's instructive to compare/contrast different professional careers that depend on mental abilities and how age affects marketability: - computer programming :…

> Why is experience valued for outside hires of CEOs but not as much for programmers?

In my experience, it’s that younger devs are cheaper, much cheaper, than older devs. Most software development is easy enough that you don’t need someone with 20 years experience. I can hire 2 or 3 people for the same price. There’s always a budget for resources, and that budget is usually as small as it needs to be. Web dev, CRUD apps, mobile apps are the norm, not Facebook scale. The tools are mature enough that a 20-25 year old can do the development, and their salary expectations are much lower.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#267

Post by nitrogen » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 2:41 PM UTC

brandall10 wrote: post #102

twox2 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are the recruiters targeting YOU specifically or are they just taking the spray-and-pray approach reaching out to everyone who fits certain keywords?

Most refer to specific aspects of my experience, some specifically referencing my current role (ie. they've read my LI, which also clearly shows my grad date)... some are spray and pray. Probably 80% of things that come my way are applicable to what I do both in skillset and title (Lead/principal/staff/director roles). Does it matter? If there is some way that recruiters are filtering based on age, my age is clearly…

At least some of these are auto-filled templates with scraped data -- I got one where "I was really impressed by your experience at ." -- yes, just a space and a period. Probably slightly modified from the defaults provided by a hiring CRM platform. You can tell the ones that really are different, because they mention something a scraper or AI wouldn't figure out.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#268

Post by xtracto » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 2:43 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #134

mindvirus wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trust me you have plenty of time, and your family is more important. Kids grow up fast though, so don't blink - you don't want to miss a thing. Best skill is to manage your work time well and set boundaries. Working overtime is a sign of not having the right structures in place, and being disciplined about those boundaries is a force multiplier - it'll force you to be rigorous about what's valuable. You can make up f…

That sounds good, but my company measure your readiness for promotion by your dedication, and uses extra hours worked as a proxy for that.

My 2c (im 40. Been IC dev for 10 years, CTO, VP, and now an 'aerchitect'):

[Your current company] doesn't matter. Your family matters 10000 times more. Dont expect to grow in your company. As a 30 year old there are TONS of companies and startups looking for you. In fact now that you dont need a job is a good time to comb the market and apply to a couple of them. That way you get some experience in the current hiring process, you tune your "value" as a professional and you can ask for crazy money (knowing that if you ask for 2X your current salary plus WFH, if a company gives it to you, you score, otherwise you are cool on your job).

My 30 to 40s were amazing professional years. I was in 3 startups and grew 2 of them from the ground up. That also helped me grow myself to where I'm now.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#269

Post by jjk166 » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 2:44 PM UTC

agentultra wrote: post #218

alexwebb2 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The implicit assumption powering this is that programming experience from 35 years ago is not only irrelevant to today’s challenges, but undesirable due to having the wrong habits and patterns of thinking; this stands in contrast to surgery or management skills which are widely perceived to be more timeless with candidate value compounding with experience. It’s plainly false for all sorts of reasons, but that’s the s…

> The implicit assumption powering this is that programming experience from 35 years ago is not only irrelevant to today’s challenges, but undesirable I think the implicit assumption has it the wrong way around. It seems like the industry takes about 30 years to catch up with the mathematicians who had discovered the solution to our problems. We create this problem for ourselves. Some hot new web framework rediscover…

This is actually the attitude that I find highly undesirable in "experienced" programmers. They recognize that Y is just X with some fancy dressing, but fail to appreciate the immense value added by that fancy dressing and thus treat Y as if it were X and never take advantage of any of the improvements, or expect Y to do things that X could be made to do but really is best done by Z nowadays.

You're still trying to accomplish the same goals, and there are only so many building blocks, so yes the big picture stays roughly the same and its only the details that change, but the devil is in those details. I find working with people who are not only ignorant of the details, but proud to recognize that they are "just" details, to be a nightmare.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#270

Post by lanstin » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 2:45 PM UTC

dgb23 wrote: post #157

marcus_holmes wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I call it the "grumpy old fart" syndrome. I've (M50+) felt it - the urge to stop learning and complain at everything that changes. It is a struggle to continue learning at this age. But it is worth it. Being a grumpy old fart sucks all the joy out of life.

As I understand the research the "struggle" is more cultural than inherent/biological. It just so happens that a good chunk of people tend to stop learning and pushing themselves for what ever reason. But if you keep at it, or get back to it, your brain adapts over time and becomes more flexible to to speak. And by "learning" they mean things that are just slightly outside of your comfort zone. Anecdotally, people wh…

Learning is hard - you are pushing the plasticity of your brain. It is like cutting grooves into your brain - but fortunately the experience of insight when you understand new things is quite pleasurable. I think it may take more “conscious intentionality” to choose that discomfort as one ages but it is surely worth it for a life of pleasure. I won’t say learning go channels and go routines was as big a sunflower burst as call back event based programming in C was as a young man, but it was unmistakably cool. Even learning the thought behind all the god-forsaken Java patterns or the dumb borrow checking for Rust make me a larger thinker and better reader and listener to technical ideas.

A life of constant curiosity and willingness to tolerate the pains of learning is a lifetime of childlike awe and playfulness.