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Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2012)

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Re: Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2012)

#81

Post by simorley »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #47
DamnYuppie wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am continually frustrated by and fail to understand how people can actually believe nature is barbaric. Nature is nature, it is kill or be killed, that is actually the natural order of things. Outside of that is an anomaly reserved for those at the absolute apex of power. This power was accumulated by being incredibly adaptable and observant. Both of these qualities made our ancestors very very good at killing thin…

> frustrated by and fail to understand how people can actually believe nature is barbaric. Nature is nature, it is kill or be killed, that is actually the natural order of things. Barbaric literally means primitive and unsophisticated. (Sophistication referring to knowledge and culture.) When we say something is barbaric, we mean it is in its natural, unrefined, untouched-by-civilisation state. That might make the st…

> When we say something is barbaric, we mean it is in its natural, unrefined, untouched-by-civilisation state.

No we don't. We generally use barbaric to describe people. Barbaric comes from barbarian. Which was originally used to describe non-greeks, non-romans, foreigners, etc. It started out as a slur. Philistine is a synonym for barbarian.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/barbarian

> Enough to have motivated our species to seek to not be subject to it.

You act like civilization was something our species strived for rather than had imposed on us. Civilization was predominantly built on slavery and exploitation. The vast majority of humanity suffered under civilization. Humanity no more clamored for civilization than livestock clamored for industrial farms.

Re: Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2012)

#82

Post by tsol »

samhw wrote: post #59
goldenkey wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you. Most of that, like plant protein powders, is due to heavy metals in the soil the plant is grown in, or adulterants. I've been using Kratom for over 5 years with no elevated liver enzymes. It's actually made me healthier since it, like other dark green leafy vegetables, has many micronutrients and minerals. NEVER buy kratom from a gas station or head-shop. That's likely where most of incidents stem from.

To anyone reading this: please ignore what this person is saying. Addicts will rationalise everything, and blame every negative side-effect on 'adulterants' or 'low-quality supply' or other varieties of 'stuff I would never do myself, compared to my perfect and healthful regimen'. Kratom is not good for you.

It's easy to pass judgement.

>Kratom is not good for you

Few effective painkiller are. Ibuprofen causes stomach bleeding, acetaminophen has toxic effects on the liver, prescription opiates are even more addictive than Kratom while running the risk of overdose. Ziconotide, what was supposed to be a miracle drug made from sea snail venom requires an invasive body implant to dose directly, and in long term use has a habit of causing suicide and psychosis. In fact it's a drug of last resort. Kratom has some health concerns but it can and is used as pain management in some people. This thread is full of people complaining it wasn't fun or felt strange-- missing the point which is that pain relief is hard to come by

Re: Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2012)

#83

Post by tsol »

samhw wrote: post #59
goldenkey wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you. Most of that, like plant protein powders, is due to heavy metals in the soil the plant is grown in, or adulterants. I've been using Kratom for over 5 years with no elevated liver enzymes. It's actually made me healthier since it, like other dark green leafy vegetables, has many micronutrients and minerals. NEVER buy kratom from a gas station or head-shop. That's likely where most of incidents stem from.

To anyone reading this: please ignore what this person is saying. Addicts will rationalise everything, and blame every negative side-effect on 'adulterants' or 'low-quality supply' or other varieties of 'stuff I would never do myself, compared to my perfect and healthful regimen'. Kratom is not good for you.

It's easy to pass judgement.

>Kratom is not good for you

Few effective painkiller are. Ibuprofen causes stomach bleeding, acetaminophen has toxic effects on the liver, prescription opiates are even more addictive than Kratom while running the risk of overdose. Ziconotide, what was supposed to be a miracle drug made from sea snail venom requires an invasive body implant to dose directly, and in long term use has a habit of causing suicide and psychosis. In fact it's a drug of last resort. Kratom has some health concerns but it can and is used as pain management in some people. This thread is full of people complaining it wasn't fun or felt strange-- missing the point which is that the point is pain relief is hard to come by

Re: Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2012)

#84

Post by tsol »

goldenkey wrote: post #39
mrestko wrote: post #19

The title is not good--lots of meds are betting than morphine...that's why we have all the other opioids: hydromorphone, fentanyl, remifentinil, sufentinil, oxycododone, etc. If you look at the Nature abstract linked from the news article, all they claim there is that the analgesic effects can be, "as strong as morphine." This also a protein which is inherently more expensive and difficult to turn into a drug compare…

Those drugs aren't better, in my experience, as a chronic pain patient. Morphine is way less addictive, longer lasting, with fewer side effects. Not to mention, it's natural, one of the main alkaloids from poppy. Now, I'm not a dolt who thinks natural is better. However, most synthetics are strictly worse from a therapeutic standpoint. This view is based on my experience with them and from my discussions with other p…

Surprised this comment is rather downvoted. This view isn't uncommon among pain patients-- such alternatives to opioids are being researched and an article like this appears every so often, but the miracle hasn't panned out. Ziconotide, based on a toxin from a sea snail, is one of the few that have made it through the development process but is still extremely specialized. While it's 1000 times as strong as morphine and non- addictive, there are other considerations with such drugs. Dosing intravenously can cause extremely strong side effects, so the drug is dosed through a pump in the body directly into the spinal fluid. Obviously such an implant must be surgically installed into the patients spine first, which comes with risks of its own. The drug also can cause extreme neurological side effects such as hallucinations, delusions, and suicidal thoughts. For this reason it's contraindicated in those with a history of psychosis, bipolar disorder, or depression. For all these reasons, though it's available it's used as a drug of last resort. Oh and it's quite expensive as well, so it effectively is only available to those who can afford expensive medical treatments. Unfortunately it will still be some time before there are viable alternatives for moderate to severe pain

Re: Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2012)

#85

Post by goldenkey »

tsol wrote: post #84
goldenkey wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those drugs aren't better, in my experience, as a chronic pain patient. Morphine is way less addictive, longer lasting, with fewer side effects. Not to mention, it's natural, one of the main alkaloids from poppy. Now, I'm not a dolt who thinks natural is better. However, most synthetics are strictly worse from a therapeutic standpoint. This view is based on my experience with them and from my discussions with other p…

Surprised this comment is rather downvoted. This view isn't uncommon among pain patients-- such alternatives to opioids are being researched and an article like this appears every so often, but the miracle hasn't panned out. Ziconotide, based on a toxin from a sea snail, is one of the few that have made it through the development process but is still extremely specialized. While it's 1000 times as strong as morphine…

Fascinating peptide, and from snail toxins, amazing, thank you for illuminating it. Apparently metabolism isn't the issue for oral use of Ziconotide, the blood brain barrier is. Researchers are currently working on using viral nanocontainers to transport it past the BBB [1] so that it can be taken less invasively. I find it fascinating that it works on blocking voltage-dependent calcium channels [2], not by agonizing opioid receptors.

It intrigues me that so many natural venoms, toxins, and poisons have analgesic agents as part of their chemistry. What do you think the reason for this is? Would a prey that doesn't realize it is in pain, perhaps struggle and flee less? If this is the case, shouldn't some of these predators have evolved to have pleasurable agents like opioids in their toxins? I suppose it might be hard for their own body to not be affected by it though? I'm gonna have to look into this topic some more. It's really fascinating to see divergent evolution hitting the same motifs.

I'm used to being downvoted, and even flagged. I say things that are deemed too controversial for the average automaton that inhabits HN. Not much can be done, so I've just come to embrace the hate. I'm not a troll but in order to deal with the constant attacks against the truth, one has to develop thick skin and perhaps even some enjoyment over knowing that people are so disturbed and shaken by foreign facts that they instinctively try to bury the newfound knowledge. Such is humanity, and HN has been growing and becoming more and more averse to truth. I hope it does not tip too far, but if it does I'm sure another community will fill the void. All we can do is speak our peace and live to fight another day.

[1] https://www.nature.com/articles/srep12497

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conotoxin

Re: Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2012)

#86

Post by samhw »

stordoff wrote: post #72
samhw wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, it's used widely in end-of-life care here in the UK (I remember my mum once saying to me, when we were discussing euthanasia, that there's no doctor in the country who hasn't 'accidentally' given a little too much diamorphine to someone who was on the verge of death and in pain). It's useful, but I imagine it's tainted in the US by the association with street heroin - somewhat curiously, since fentanyl apparentl…

I've no idea how often it is done with the intent to end life, but doctors are legally allowed to give doses of medication that may hasten death, providing their intention is only to relieve pain and suffering - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Adams_(1957) It can be argued[1] that only doses that are virtually certain to cause death lead to liability for the death, so no doubt there is some overlap between doses gi…

Indeed, you're referring to the doctrine of double effect (which the linked Wikipedia article on R v Adams mentions).

That said, I don't think "[only] doses that are virtually certain to cause death lead to liability for the death" is correct. You had it right the first time: the relevant fact is not whether it's likely or even certain to cause death, but rather whether causing death is the primary intention. (I'm not a lawyer, though, I'm just speaking on the basis of my knowledge as a lay person.)

Re: Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2012)

#87

Post by samhw »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #78
samhw wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And how would those dictionaries define savagery? I mean, a good nothing-up-my-sleeve definition is the Google one: https://www.google.com/search?q=define+savagery https://www.google.com/search?q=define+savage Respectfully, I think you're hunting down odd-one-out definitions that support your theory - not necessarily consciously. All of these words connote cruelty. The overwhelming majority of dictionary definition…

> a good nothing-up-my-sleeve definition is the Google one Now try “barbaric”. Definition two: “primitive; unsophisticated” [1]. (Sorry, could not help it.) > these words connote cruelty Never argued it didn’t. My original comment uses the same word. [1] https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%20barbaric#crs=...

> Now try “barbaric”. Definition two: “primitive; unsophisticated”

Yes, definition two. I reiterate what I said before: you're searching for fringe meanings to back up your argument.

Your original comment argued that the meaning of 'barbaric' was primarily about simplicity and primitiveness, in order to argue that the phrase 'nature is barbaric' is agnostic about nature's cruelty. This makes for a neat-sounding argument, but, again, it's unfortunately just not true. The word 'barbaric' has signified cruelty as its dominant meaning ever since the Romans.

(I know it's tempting to twist the facts a little to make an elegant argument, but it's just not honest to cherry-pick secondary definitions, or anomalous definitions from minor dictionaries, and use sleight-of-hand to pretend that's the main understood meaning.)

Re: Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2012)

#88

Post by samhw »

vore wrote: post #63
samhw wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And how would those dictionaries define savagery? I mean, a good nothing-up-my-sleeve definition is the Google one: https://www.google.com/search?q=define+savagery https://www.google.com/search?q=define+savage Respectfully, I think you're hunting down odd-one-out definitions that support your theory - not necessarily consciously. All of these words connote cruelty. The overwhelming majority of dictionary definition…

I don't think arguing about the semantics of "barbarism" really takes away from the original overarching argument: nature is primitive and cruel but humans in general at least try to alleviate that kind of cruelty seen in non-human nature.

> takes away from the original overarching argument: nature is primitive and cruel but humans in general at least try to alleviate that kind of cruelty seen in non-human nature

And if that were the only claim they made, that would be fine. I just happen to dislike people dishonestly twisting facts – in this case, misrepresenting the meaning of a word by cherry-picking some recherché fringe definition and making it out to be the primary meaning – to make their argument sound more impressive.

Re: Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2012)

#89

Post by samhw »

simorley wrote: post #81
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> frustrated by and fail to understand how people can actually believe nature is barbaric. Nature is nature, it is kill or be killed, that is actually the natural order of things. Barbaric literally means primitive and unsophisticated. (Sophistication referring to knowledge and culture.) When we say something is barbaric, we mean it is in its natural, unrefined, untouched-by-civilisation state. That might make the st…

> When we say something is barbaric, we mean it is in its natural, unrefined, untouched-by-civilisation state. No we don't. We generally use barbaric to describe people. Barbaric comes from barbarian. Which was originally used to describe non-greeks, non-romans, foreigners, etc. It started out as a slur. Philistine is a synonym for barbarian. https://www.etymonline.com/word/barbarian > Enough to have motivated our sp…

Yup, you're entirely correct. I'm disappointed to see your point downvoted. I thought HN was above believing in arguments just because of their elegance, even if that elegance is accomplished by distorting the facts.

Re: Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2012)

#90

Post by samhw »

tsol wrote: post #82
samhw wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To anyone reading this: please ignore what this person is saying. Addicts will rationalise everything, and blame every negative side-effect on 'adulterants' or 'low-quality supply' or other varieties of 'stuff I would never do myself, compared to my perfect and healthful regimen'. Kratom is not good for you.

It's easy to pass judgement. >Kratom is not good for you Few effective painkiller are. Ibuprofen causes stomach bleeding, acetaminophen has toxic effects on the liver, prescription opiates are even more addictive than Kratom while running the risk of overdose. Ziconotide, what was supposed to be a miracle drug made from sea snail venom requires an invasive body implant to dose directly, and in long term use has a hab…

My point isn't that it "isn't fun or felt strange". My point is that it's dangerous and addictive. It's not honest to equate it to the minor hepatotoxicity of over-the-counter NSAID painkillers. Ibuprofen does not have a 25-thousand-member subreddit for addicts trying to quit (https://www.reddit.com/r/quittingkratom/).
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