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Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2012)

bbc.com

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Re: Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2012)

#71

Post by goldenkey »

samhw wrote: post #58
gremloni wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kratom is such a terrible overall experience. I did it recreationally a few times and it’s always headaches and nausea the next day in some kind of hangover that lasts multiple days.

I haven't heard of kratom being used by non-addicts, so I'm not surprised you wouldn't like it - it's like a non-smoker using nicotine patches. It's mainly used by people detoxing from stronger opioids. I did it when I was coming off heroin (locked myself in my parents' country house for a fortnight or so, took ibogaine and kratom for withdrawals, came out fatigued but basically well). Even then, I found it extremely…

You took ibogaine, a drug known to be cardiotoxic. You are a former heroin addict that is projecting your inability to use medicine responsibly onto other folks with medical conditions.

You talk about a high despite me never mentioning getting high, only the pain relieving effects. I could care less about a high. I use Kratom medicinally to help me live a better life.

I am sorry you took pain relieving agents and misused them. I'm sorry you thought street drugs like heroin were suitable quality and safe. I'm sorry for the pain you endured when withdrawing from these drugs. Now, I'm sorry you are projecting all of this on responsible users of much safer therapeutic agents.

Re: Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2012)

#72

Post by stordoff »

samhw wrote: post #52
Symbiote wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also diamorphine (heroine), which has several advantages over morphine and is used medically outside the USA.

Yup, it's used widely in end-of-life care here in the UK (I remember my mum once saying to me, when we were discussing euthanasia, that there's no doctor in the country who hasn't 'accidentally' given a little too much diamorphine to someone who was on the verge of death and in pain). It's useful, but I imagine it's tainted in the US by the association with street heroin - somewhat curiously, since fentanyl apparentl…

I've no idea how often it is done with the intent to end life, but doctors are legally allowed to give doses of medication that may hasten death, providing their intention is only to relieve pain and suffering - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Adams_(1957)

It can be argued[1] that only doses that are virtually certain to cause death lead to liability for the death, so no doubt there is some overlap between doses given to relieve pain and those that quicken death.

Diamorphine is also sometimes used for labour pain.[2]

[1] https://www.uhs.nhs.uk/HealthProfessionals/Clinical-law-upda...

[2] https://www.nhs.uk/pregnancy/labour-and-birth/what-happens/p...

Re: Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2012)

#73

Post by wwweston »

nyokodo wrote: post #64
wwweston wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the mind that is not baffled is not employed the impeded stream is the one that sings" -- Wendell Berry

That’s a simple and lovely poem that speaks to me deeply. Thanks for teaching me it exists.

Berry's a good well for deep-speaking thought.

The essay from which it comes is pretty great too -- I don't think it's online in whole form but there are pieces discussed here:

https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/11/18/wendell-berry-poetr...

Re: Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2012)

#74

Post by [deleted] »

eth0up wrote: post #29
NikolaNovak wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fwiw - I enjoyed your posts The way I enjoy poetry : lovely, but largely incomprehensible. I don't know if you're getting down voted due to people disagreeing or merely not understanding what your point and data is. It is possible if you contributed more clearly you'd find a more receptive audience. I find frequently when there is topic near to people's heart aNd they spend a lot of time thinking about, they start at…

> merely my 2 cents Two 1943 wheat pennies, I'd say. Thanks.

[deleted]

Re: Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2012)

#75

Post by dragonwriter »

DamnYuppie wrote: post #45
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> being completely baffled about why the mamba would produce it Is it delivered in a dose sufficient to cause unconsciousness, or even just euphoric lethargy in its prey? If so, that sounds both effective and weirdly sweet, given nature's usual barbarism.

I am continually frustrated by and fail to understand how people can actually believe nature is barbaric. Nature is nature, it is kill or be killed, that is actually the natural order of things. Outside of that is an anomaly reserved for those at the absolute apex of power. This power was accumulated by being incredibly adaptable and observant. Both of these qualities made our ancestors very very good at killing thin…

> I am continually frustrated by and fail to understand how people can actually believe nature is barbaric.

Because it is.

> Nature is nature, it is kill or be killed, that is actually the natural order of things.

That’s also what people describe as “barbarism”, generally. So, you seem to agree that nature is substantively barbaric, but be confused that people describe it that way.

Re: Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2012)

#76

Post by Nasrudith »

I wouldn't be surprised if the venom was addictive too. I mean it isn't like it had any selective pressure for preventing or causing addiction. Although the latter may come as a side effect.

I can see a purpose for a multifaceted venom - both synergy of "speedballing" the lethal dose and making it harder biochemically for a creature to develop an immunity.

Like always with evolved systems purpose is an emergent thing by what reproduces and survives the best. It is a tautology of "things that spread and stay you have more of".

Re: Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2012)

#77

Post by ptr2voidStar »

dragonwriter wrote: post #75
DamnYuppie wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am continually frustrated by and fail to understand how people can actually believe nature is barbaric. Nature is nature, it is kill or be killed, that is actually the natural order of things. Outside of that is an anomaly reserved for those at the absolute apex of power. This power was accumulated by being incredibly adaptable and observant. Both of these qualities made our ancestors very very good at killing thin…

> I am continually frustrated by and fail to understand how people can actually believe nature is barbaric. Because it is. > Nature is nature, it is kill or be killed, that is actually the natural order of things. That’s also what people describe as “barbarism”, generally. So, you seem to agree that nature is substantively barbaric, but be confused that people describe it that way.

Very aptly put.

Re: Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2012)

#78

Post by JumpCrisscross »

samhw wrote: post #60
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any dictionary since then will give a primary meaning of cruelty and savagery, not just 'primitive and unsophisticated' And how would those dictionaries define savagery? Webster's first entries are "not domesticated or under human control" and "lacking the restraints normal to civilized human beings" [1]. The penultimate comment works with savage and cruel substituted for primitive and unsophisticated. (Though didn…

> And how would those dictionaries define savagery? I mean, a good nothing-up-my-sleeve definition is the Google one: https://www.google.com/search?q=define+savagery https://www.google.com/search?q=define+savage Respectfully, I think you're hunting down odd-one-out definitions that support your theory - not necessarily consciously. All of these words connote cruelty. The overwhelming majority of dictionary definition…

> a good nothing-up-my-sleeve definition is the Google one

Now try “barbaric”. Definition two: “primitive; unsophisticated” [1]. (Sorry, could not help it.)

> these words connote cruelty

Never argued it didn’t. My original comment uses the same word.

[1] https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%20barbaric#crs=...

Re: Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2012)

#79

Post by Turing_Machine »

GravitasFailure wrote: post #4
h2odragon wrote: post #2

I would much rather tend a field of poppies than a mamba snake ranch. Poppies hardly ever run away from thunderstorms.

On one side, this is an incredible medical advancement and opens the door to a lot of other developments, but on the other side if my doctor said I was getting injected with snake venom...

The very common ACE inhibitor medications for high blood pressure (lisinopril and the others that end in -pril) are synthetic analogs of a compound found in the South American pit viper Bothrops jararaca. Scientists noted that being bitten by one of these snakes produces a rapid and profound drop in blood pressure. In the wild, of course, this causes the snake's natural prey animals to pass out so they can be eaten.

So it's not like snake venom-related drugs are unprecedented.

Re: Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2012)

#80

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

0xB31B1B wrote: post #24
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> FTA: They admit to being completely baffled about why the mamba would produce it. It's because they are scientists. Scientists are always "baffled", in the news.

Very frustrating. In practice the scientists are expressing uncertainty “we do no know/need to investigate further” not confusion or bewilderment

I can imagine the journalists asking them "are you completely baffled?".
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