Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#271

Post by ip26 » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 3:47 PM UTC

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #169

Factorium wrote: post #152

The best solution to climate change is a price on Carbon. Anything else is just pork. If we don't want to impose a carbon price on ourselves, we can do it to others via import tariffs.

I disagree: It might be part of the solution, but simply taxing carbon means that rich folks or companies can pollute. We need green methods put into law to force folks to cut their emissions and pollutants - and punish those who run afoul of the laws, including steep fines, possible business shutdowns, and personal liability/criminal charges for CEOS and other folks running the company, especially if they cover up t…

If the cost of a carbon credit is higher than the cost of sequestration, and sequestering operations generate credits, then in essence by paying for carbon credits you are paying to clean up your emissions.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#272

Post by tomrod » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 4:03 PM UTC

sysihyk wrote: post #245

tomrod wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Back to boozefed please

I'm allowed to have an opinion even when it is unpopular. Thanks though.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#273

Post by belorn » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 4:11 PM UTC

amrangaye wrote: post #210

AussieWog93 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. This same rhetoric has been repeated for decades, and has continually received the same, hostile response from the public and politicians. I'm not arguing that it's wrong or untruthful, but alarmist statements like this are a demonstrably poor tool for rousing the public into action…

But is it really “alarmism” to yell at people inside a house on fire that they need to “get the hell out now!” even if some people in a separate part of the building (not touched by the fire yet) insist that the growing heat is due to something else, God has it in control and would never set the fire, in fact the people yelling out the warnings are just being “alarmist”, it’s against their constitutional rights etc?…

Even if we could convince people that they must get moving and that the fire is real, people will be frozen in discussion over which path of escape is best. Maybe they should use the fire escape, or reach the roof, or take the window, or maybe that fire extinguishers but then the question if the kitchen or the basement is closer. Alternative they will argue that the best method might be to wait for a firefighter and do what they do. If we follow the analog further we would also have people arguing about which people is responsible to fight the fire, who deserve the take the blame, who should be faced with the consequence, whose parent designed the building, whose people is responsible for voting those who made the building regulations, who owns most properties, and finally who invaded whom a few hundred years ago. All while standing inside the ongoing fire.

I honestly don't know what can be done.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#274

Post by belorn » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 4:18 PM UTC

sailingparrot wrote: post #221

roenxi wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many Canadians are there in the CCP leadership? China is around 30% of the globes emissions, Canada is 1.5%. Alarmist statements are not going to do anything to Chinese policy. The only thing that is going to work is having a technically better source of energy to move to.

You know what those emissions in China are for right? China is the factory of the world, they build the things that we consume. So applying a carbon tax in Canada will make those goods more expensive and reduce the demand, reducing China's footprint.

A carbon tax without tariffs would not work. The big question is if Canada can impose such tariffs that locally produced low-carbon emitting products has a economical advantage over those produced and later shipped from china.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#275

Post by ryandrake » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 4:21 PM UTC

AussieWog93 wrote: post #147

asaddhamani wrote: post #11

We need “unprecedented measures” to stop and reverse the “unprecedented” damage we have caused to the planet and its climate. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. Yes, the proposed changes might be inconvenient but it’s time we suck it up and do the needful. Small steps are not good enough. We need drastic measures.

>Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. This same rhetoric has been repeated for decades, and has continually received the same, hostile response from the public and politicians. I'm not arguing that it's wrong or untruthful, but alarmist statements like this are a demonstrably poor tool for rousing the public into action…

Climate change news reminds me of that "truck almost hitting a pole" meme [1]. I know it's a growing problem that will likely mean big, uncomfortable changes, but the constant crisis rhetoric is just exhausting. I'm GenX so I've been hearing this every day of my life for decades. Right in that awkward age between the generation that doesn't care even in the slightest about Climate Change and the generation that thinks it's the worst problem the world has ever faced.

Politicians my age are slowly seeping into power now. If Climate Change activists want to convince them, constant Dialed-up-to-10 alarmism is just not the way they're going to do it.

1: https://imgur.com/r/gifs/kuplW0m

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#276

Post by tzs » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 4:23 PM UTC

indymike wrote: post #223

asaddhamani wrote: post #11

We need “unprecedented measures” to stop and reverse the “unprecedented” damage we have caused to the planet and its climate. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. Yes, the proposed changes might be inconvenient but it’s time we suck it up and do the needful. Small steps are not good enough. We need drastic measures.

》Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. This is the battle cry of those who have surrendered to fear and are willing to trade freedom for oppression.

That's what a large fraction of the winners on /r/hermancainaward say in regard to pretty much anyone wanting to take any measures against COVID.

It's the battle cry of those who think that a problem isn't real or will just go away on its own with little harm if we ignore it.

That doesn't work, and the longer the problem is ignored before dealing with it the more disruptive and intrusive the action needed becomes.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#277

Post by canarypilot » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 4:27 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #113

canarypilot wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The downvotes are likely because you’ve made an outlandish claim that is unlikely to hold up to investigation - that America admits more immigrants than the population of some democracies that criticise it. Total estimated population of unauthorised migrants in the US is around 11.4 million and declining (around 3% of population). 310,000 unauthorised migrants arrive in a year https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/…

500,000 migrants per year? 1 million get US citizenship each year.

You are right, I’ve read a quarter’s numbers as the numbers for the year in the naturalisation source. Multiply my estimates for lawful naturalisation by 4 and get to between 400,000 and 800,000 (backed up by 2017-2019 data https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/immigra... ). That’s still a long way short of the population of Canada (and you have overshot by a bit).

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#278

Post by throwawaysea » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 4:49 PM UTC

stormbrew wrote: post #44

throwawaysea wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This bill isn’t a focused climate or infrastructure bill. That’s the marketing dressing for a widely scoped bill where only 23% of spending is for infrastructure. In actuality it includes many radically left-leaning policies, which moderates on neither side of the aisle can support. A prominent example is that it included changes to immigration that would grant citizenship for 8 million illegal immigrants, which luck…

> intends to reshape the electorate and dilute the voting interests of legal citizens Even if this characterization of the bill were accurate, those people would then be legal citizens. Are they then diluting their own voting interests? At any rate people being born also dilutes voting interests, should we end that too, or are only people born to it inherently worthy of citizenship? Anyways, what, precisely, makes th…

Respectfully, I’m not sure what point you’re making here. Yes this bill would exploit our political process to legally admit many future citizens. I don’t think that makes it ethical, just as I don’t think it was ethical for McConnell to exploit a technicality around a SCOTUS nomination, or for either party to exploit executive orders as a means to legislate. I view the interests of illegal immigrants as less valid because they’ve violated our laws in arriving here in the first place. Crimes normally result in citizenship not being granted to otherwise legal migrants, and the same should hold here. The reason this amnesty is under consideration at all is because it is a shortcut to political power, granting one political side more future votes relative to the other.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#279

Post by cloverich » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 4:54 PM UTC

snarfy wrote: post #216

jay_kyburz wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans (and Australians) will never accept any changes that negatively impact their lives or wallets. Especially when the consequences of climate change are not clear and present. As democracies, we will simply vote out any government that asks us to change our ways. I think Covid19 demonstrates how resistant people are to change, and that they are not willing to make sacrifices for the greater good. Nearly 700,00…

We would all need to basically live an Amish lifestyle. Not many will do it willingly. We really need some breakthrough like fusion.

we need some breakthroughs but don’t need to live like amish. Heat pumps, nuclear, solar panels, electric cars, urbanization that promotes walkability, all exist and go a long way. We need plenty of breakthroughs, lots of help from policy as well, but already have much of what we need to get pretty far along.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#280

Post by throwawaysea » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 5:04 PM UTC

dillondoyle wrote: post #121

stormbrew wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> intends to reshape the electorate and dilute the voting interests of legal citizens Even if this characterization of the bill were accurate, those people would then be legal citizens. Are they then diluting their own voting interests? At any rate people being born also dilutes voting interests, should we end that too, or are only people born to it inherently worthy of citizenship? Anyways, what, precisely, makes th…

Many of them are DREAMers too

Why is it relevant that some were DACA eligible? They’re still illegal immigrants, and it doesn’t impact the reality that granting them deferred action changes the future electoral power for each party significantly due to birthright citizenship. DACA wasn’t even a proper piece of legislation, but an executive order, which makes it even more one-sided.