The Software Industry Is Still the Problem • Hacker News Board

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#61

Post by agent327 » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 2:27 PM UTC

jacknews wrote: post #23

On what basis should a developer be held liable for damage caused by software? Certainly a group of 'experts' could identify outright negligence. But in engineering professions, the standards are well understood, and measurable. Software is not the same at all. The whole argument appears spurious, and the arguer, sanctimonious.

Yeah - and why the developer, exactly?

Not liable:

- The CEO that set infeasible targets and pocketed a big bonus for meeting shareholder expectations.

- The sales person that sold the project for too little money and pocketed a big bonus for bringing it in.

- The manager who allocated too few hours and got a raise for finishing the project in time.

- The designer who drew all the cute boxes on the powerpoint presentation to show how it was going to work.

- The testers who failed to find whatever the problem was.

Liable:

- The poor chap who wrote the code, worked extra unpaid hours to get it done at all within the timescale imposed, didn't have a say in how it was going to be implemented, and didn't even get so much as a thank you.

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#62

Post by draw_down » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 3:36 PM UTC

agent327 wrote: post #61

jacknews wrote: post #23

On what basis should a developer be held liable for damage caused by software? Certainly a group of 'experts' could identify outright negligence. But in engineering professions, the standards are well understood, and measurable. Software is not the same at all. The whole argument appears spurious, and the arguer, sanctimonious.

Yeah - and why the developer, exactly? Not liable: - The CEO that set infeasible targets and pocketed a big bonus for meeting shareholder expectations. - The sales person that sold the project for too little money and pocketed a big bonus for bringing it in. - The manager who allocated too few hours and got a raise for finishing the project in time. - The designer who drew all the cute boxes on the powerpoint present…

Precisely!

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#63

Post by austincheney » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 3:45 PM UTC

tomhoward wrote: post #49

austincheney wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s absurd that the same standards of liability would apply to an aviation software job vs the part time IT guy While I agree, the reality is that the part time IT guy is generally far more certified than the high paid software developer, which I find far more absurd.

> generally far more certified Hardly. Any software developer working on systems that risk people’s safety - eg avionics, automotive systems, medical devices, traffic control systems - would be required to have advanced university qualifications. Google at least used to require all its software engineers to have masters degrees. Do they still? People I’ve know to work in software dev jobs at Microsoft and even mid-le…

That completely misses the point.

Some developers have some certifications to cover employer liability. You cannot be a software developer for the US federal government without at least a Security+ certification, but this is rare among developers. In most of my giant corporate employers you didn’t need even a bachelors degree.

Regardless of industry or employer you cannot get hired as a help desk IT guy without a laundry list of certifications. It is a night and day difference.

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#64

Post by tomhoward » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 4:21 PM UTC

austincheney wrote: post #63

tomhoward wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> generally far more certified Hardly. Any software developer working on systems that risk people’s safety - eg avionics, automotive systems, medical devices, traffic control systems - would be required to have advanced university qualifications. Google at least used to require all its software engineers to have masters degrees. Do they still? People I’ve know to work in software dev jobs at Microsoft and even mid-le…

That completely misses the point. Some developers have some certifications to cover employer liability. You cannot be a software developer for the US federal government without at least a Security+ certification, but this is rare among developers. In most of my giant corporate employers you didn’t need even a bachelors degree. Regardless of industry or employer you cannot get hired as a help desk IT guy without a lau…

You said you agreed with my main point so I probably should have left it at that, but for the record:

The OP says: Most organizations seem to hire their first part-time IT person before they reach 20 employees. When that first IT person is replaced, the new IT person bores everybody with complaints about how "totally incompetent" the first person must have been, and, usually, is correct. When you hire somebody's teenage kid, you almost invariably get the competence you pay for.

By "somebody's teenage kid" I gather we're meant to assume this character is not qualified or certified; that's the very point of the article. I've certainly known of such people, and have even been that person. Indeed the first five years of my career were in helpdesk and network design roles, and I had no certifications.

Sure, I know what you mean, that to be serious support professional for products from vendors like Microsoft, Cisco, Oracle, etc, you need certifications. But plenty of small-business networks are set up by young, inexperienced, uncertified people such as family members and friends, and if the business stays small it's often fine.

But sure, among software developers, plenty of highly paid ones don't have qualifications/certifications, where it's not deemed necessary by employers/clients. And plenty do, where it is deemed necessary or legally required.

I guess the real point is that people are paid more for their impact and the uniqueness of their abilities, not their certifications, and it's more common to be high-impact and unique as a developer than as a helpdesk tech.

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#65

Post by Jensson » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 4:35 PM UTC

onei wrote: post #45

Jensson wrote: post #37

> As I write this on an early July morning, 200-plus corporations, including many retail chains, have inoperative IT because extortionists found a hole in some niche, third-party software product most of us have never heard of. As I write this, millions of cars have gotten stolen due to vulnerable lock mechanism. A thief can with simple toools just open the door, start the car and drive away. Do we sue the engineer d…

You having your car stolen, and software used across a company having a vulnerability are different in terms of scale though. If a whole shipment of cars was stolen due to a lock flaw (which is admittedly contrived), then I'd imagine whoever owned the cars would have a problem with the maker of the cars.

But almost a million cars gets stolen a year in US, totalling billions of value. How is that not the same scale?

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#66

Post by hulitu » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 4:39 PM UTC

yoz-y wrote: post #12

Software is buggier than buildings because it is built on human made abstractions all the way down. You can reason about a structure if you know where the buck stops (Newtonian physics basically). Computer software isn’t that.

"Software is buggier than buildings because it is built on human made abstractions all the way down."

Software is buggier because: - testing is expensive and takes time so it is a good candidate for cost saving - "atomic requirements" - there is no such thing. As long as your function is part of a program you cannot consider it separately. - "if it compiles ship it" - "let's turn on -Werror and ship it". Let the user fix the bugs. - "All the world is a VAX". ... and other such great ideas which have nothing to do with engineering. If builders build buildings the way programmers build SW: every year the building code will change and you will not be able to connect old buildings to utilities ( or they will be disconnected), nobody will agree on a mean of transportation of building materials and after you build it someone will steal all your belongings because the windows will have no locks.

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#67

Post by drewcoo » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 4:58 PM UTC

krautsourced wrote: post #31

Other engineering sectors do have this kind of liability. What do these sectors have as well? Standards. If a house needs to be built, there are _loads_ of safety regulations to follow. Standards to adhere to. Inspections to be had. Only then is someone allowed to move in. Software? Decisions are often made without either knowledge or a plan. Agile is a thing. Deadlines are shorter than ever. Also: ideally it needs t…

Yes, and those engineers have their standards because of liability. The article meanders somewhere in the vicinity of that point. I lost track because I was paying too much attention to not stepping on his lawn.

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#68

Post by smitty1e » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 5:05 PM UTC

Liability implies lawyers.

Contracts also imply lawyers.

What if we put the liability requirements into the contract, and see how it goes?

Might we discover that legal language is just another programming language as fraught with peril as the software?

Don't take my word for it: make that legalese happen.

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#69

Post by soco » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 5:33 PM UTC

john37386 wrote: post #13

In Quebec/Canada there is this huge company called Trigone. They build all kind of big buildings here and their modus operandi was to create shell companies around Trigone. So the shell company would build the building and instantly bankrupt after. The people who bought part of the new building were stuck with all kind of problems and no way to fight back. The RBQ which is the agency in charge of making sure the rule…

It's standard practice in Switzerland to do shoddy construction jobs then declare bankruptcy, buh-bye. Good news is, the parliament is working to outlaw those folks opening new construction firms. There are solutions, but apparently only when the state intervenes...

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#70

Post by yoz-y » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 5:42 PM UTC

hulitu wrote: post #66

yoz-y wrote: post #12

Software is buggier than buildings because it is built on human made abstractions all the way down. You can reason about a structure if you know where the buck stops (Newtonian physics basically). Computer software isn’t that.

"Software is buggier than buildings because it is built on human made abstractions all the way down." Software is buggier because: - testing is expensive and takes time so it is a good candidate for cost saving - "atomic requirements" - there is no such thing. As long as your function is part of a program you cannot consider it separately. - "if it compiles ship it" - "let's turn on -Werror and ship it". Let the user…

How about, "if material science advanced as fast as computers, there would be 30% better insulation and 30% cheaper way to build 30% more efficient buildings every year". Software is not build on as stable of a basis because hardware changes and more is possible. E.g.: with on-device ML possibilities you can now do way more things, but now we also need to figure out how to best do them. The fact that we have more cores mean that we can serve more clients by a single machine, in-theory, but we also need to rewrite everything in parallel.

When was the last time it was "worth it" to tear down a 10 year old building because rebuilding one would save enormous amount of money in a couple of years?

I think there is a balance to find in both, I'm not saying we should rush into everything, but expecting that everything is always super stable, would absolutely end up in the nice features being available later than technically possible.