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The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

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Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#31

Post by krautsourced »

Other engineering sectors do have this kind of liability. What do these sectors have as well? Standards. If a house needs to be built, there are _loads_ of safety regulations to follow. Standards to adhere to. Inspections to be had. Only then is someone allowed to move in.

Software? Decisions are often made without either knowledge or a plan. Agile is a thing. Deadlines are shorter than ever. Also: ideally it needs to be for free. Just pick up that package from Github, it should be good enough (maybe it even has Tests, but who cares, really).

The software projects that are heavily regulated? Take forever to plan and complete. Massive budgets. And still usually are not able to manage to be bug free.

Also: software is really, really complex. And: it is easy to attack. Let's be real: other engineering projects are really easy to break as well - some well placed C4 usually does the trick. But it is hard to get C4. Hard to get access. Also, hopefully, there's an ethical barrier to doing it. Software on the other hand? From home. And once there is an angle of attack, it can attack millions of targets at once. And there are no visible victims, at least not right away, so the ethical barrier is lower as well.

Ok I'm rambling. Anyway. This, as is software, is a complex issue. And liability could totally be a thing, but that means an end to ad-financed applications or 2$/user/month services. You get what you pay for (well, sometimes not even then, but you definitely do not get anything for cheap any more). Perfect example: super-cheap IoT devices from China. Well engineered ones doing basically the same thing? 10x, sometimes 100x the price.

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#32

Post by randomdata »

nend wrote: post #20

When it comes down to it, most software bugs don't matter. Reimburse the customer, wait a few days for a dev to fix something, whatever, it'll get resolved and everyone will be whole again. Contrast this with construction, if there's a "bug" in the building, people can die, or lose housing, or companies can lose large amounts of money. Bug in a billing system? Just try and pay again next week. In industries where sof…

Not to mention that buildings are equally full of all kinds “bugs” that are more toward the annoying end of the spectrum. You learn to live with them or fix them.

Realistically, I’m not sure I’ve ever seen something created by humans that was entirely bug-free.

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#33

Post by julianlam »

bregma wrote: post #8
platz wrote: post #4

> It may be less obvious why the state cares who runs pet shops, inseminates cattle, or performs zoological taxidermy, but if you read the applicable laws, you'll learn that animal welfare and protection of endangered species have many and obscure corner cases. But how did many those laws come to be? Is it because the state cares about these professions a-priori, or because established players in those industries lob…

Are you saying we're safe from exploding toilets because of regulatory capture by a few corrupt individuals? Bring on the corruption!

I feel like a toilet analogy does not work, as anybody can install a toilet

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#34

Post by austincheney »

tomhoward wrote: post #21

The other types of engineering the author refers to that are subject to certification involve the physical safety of other people. But still, plenty of software development roles are subject to professional liability, particularly where the work is linked to people’s physical safety. As a contractor or director of a company providing software services, I’ve been required to have professional indemnity and public liab…

> It’s absurd that the same standards of liability would apply to an aviation software job vs the part time IT guy

While I agree, the reality is that the part time IT guy is generally far more certified than the high paid software developer, which I find far more absurd.

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#35

Post by ClumsyPilot »

tomhoward wrote: post #21

The other types of engineering the author refers to that are subject to certification involve the physical safety of other people. But still, plenty of software development roles are subject to professional liability, particularly where the work is linked to people’s physical safety. As a contractor or director of a company providing software services, I’ve been required to have professional indemnity and public liab…

"This is a rant about a non-problem."

Every time I buy a 'smart' version of a product, whether its a light or coffee machine, it becomes 10x less reliable.

When your coffee machine is mining bitcoins because it's software is written in javascript and someone paid the author of left pad, that funny. When half the city comes to a hault becauae the same thing happened to traffic lights..

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#36

Post by Etheryte »

tomhoward wrote: post #21

The other types of engineering the author refers to that are subject to certification involve the physical safety of other people. But still, plenty of software development roles are subject to professional liability, particularly where the work is linked to people’s physical safety. As a contractor or director of a company providing software services, I’ve been required to have professional indemnity and public liab…

I think you might be missing the forest for the trees a bit. Many industries have a very wide range of certifications and there's no reason IT couldn't be the same. For example, think doctors: some are certified for surgery, some are certified to give physiotherapy, some are certified to refer you to other doctors etc. I don't think cost is a reasonable argument either — you wouldn't want a plumber with no knowledge of their profession just because they're cheaper. There's (usually) no life-threatening danger involved, but you can end up with very large expenses if something goes wrong.

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#37

Post by Jensson »

> As I write this on an early July morning, 200-plus corporations, including many retail chains, have inoperative IT because extortionists found a hole in some niche, third-party software product most of us have never heard of.

As I write this, millions of cars have gotten stolen due to vulnerable lock mechanism. A thief can with simple toools just open the door, start the car and drive away. Do we sue the engineer designing the lock for billions in damages? No. It isn't reasonable to blame engineers for everything.

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#38

Post by bregma »

platz wrote: post #11
bregma wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying we're safe from exploding toilets because of regulatory capture by a few corrupt individuals? Bring on the corruption!

Im not trying to establish a categorical imperative that applies to everything, such as toilets, but may make sense in certain industries (maybe zoological taxidermy)? The larger point is why the software industry has avoided regulatory capture or eschews certification in contrast to other markets. In other words, more boadly, is it the government that pushes for these laws, or the market that demands/asks for them?…

> The larger point is why rhe software industry has avoided regulatory capture

I would argue that the software industry is not run by software developers but by the cowboys in suits at the Excel and Powerpoint rodeo in the boardroom. It's rife with regulatory capture, but software developers in that environment are considered a liability to be minimized. Tweaking that expense line in your presentation to the shareholders means hiring the cheapest labour possible and spending as little as possible on their development, training, and certification. Your investment in lobbying authorities to keep regulation at bay has an enticing rate of return.

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#40

Post by ClumsyPilot »

krautsourced wrote: post #31

Other engineering sectors do have this kind of liability. What do these sectors have as well? Standards. If a house needs to be built, there are _loads_ of safety regulations to follow. Standards to adhere to. Inspections to be had. Only then is someone allowed to move in. Software? Decisions are often made without either knowledge or a plan. Agile is a thing. Deadlines are shorter than ever. Also: ideally it needs t…

"Let's be real: other engineering projects are really easy to break as well - some well placed C4 usually does the trick. But it is hard to get C4. Hard to get access"

Who breaks into anything with C4? You can buy a battery powered drill and angle grinder for $300, and break into anything thats not a military bunker. Or you can learn to use lockpicks, and break into most houses for $20.

However, what we have in software, is customer finding out that the door was a mirage and you could wall right through it, or keys being sold on the black market

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