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The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

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Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#11
post #8
post #4

> It may be less obvious why the state cares who runs pet shops, inseminates cattle, or performs zoological taxidermy, but if you read the applicable laws, you'll learn that animal welfare and protection of endangered species have many and obscure corner cases. But how did many those laws come to be? Is it because the state cares about these professions a-priori, or because established players in those industries lob…

Are you saying we're safe from exploding toilets because of regulatory capture by a few corrupt individuals? Bring on the corruption!

Im not trying to establish a categorical imperative that applies to everything, such as toilets, but may make sense in certain industries (maybe zoological taxidermy)?

The larger point is why the software industry has avoided regulatory capture or eschews certification in contrast to other markets.

In other words, more boadly, is it the government that pushes for these laws, or the market that demands/asks for them?

(Also, it might helpful to differentiate B2B vs B2C here).

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#12
Software is buggier than buildings because it is built on human made abstractions all the way down. You can reason about a structure if you know where the buck stops (Newtonian physics basically). Computer software isn’t that.

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#13
In Quebec/Canada there is this huge company called Trigone. They build all kind of big buildings here and their modus operandi was to create shell companies around Trigone. So the shell company would build the building and instantly bankrupt after. The people who bought part of the new building were stuck with all kind of problems and no way to fight back.

The RBQ which is the agency in charge of making sure the rules are respected for construction, removed all their licenses yesterday.

It took years, but finally people will no longer suffer from crooked builders.

Here is the news. It's in french. https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1828502/construction-re...

I wish there was some kind of agency in charge of penalizing crooked software companies which are known for years to screw businesses. It will take time, but we will get there.

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#14
I view software as a form of literacy as opposed to engineering. Silicon chips - that's engineering. Codifying the process used by a large corporation to tell all its other systems a new joiner has arrived called "bob smith". That's writing something that other humans can read and can be executed by these engineered robots we have.

While my heart is socialist, my head is market-driven. And I think a market solution is the best option here.

But markets only work with informed buyers.

If my literacy idea is right - then no-one can judge software without being software literate (and having access to the source.) Just imagine a world where people had to buy the best books - but that the literacy rate was under 1%. We would have podcasts on that great book, the CEO would sign off on a purchase after and .... - books would be like software is here. Success based on marketing and yes minimising liability (no one ever got fired for buying microsoft). Linux would be samizisat!

I vastly admire Poul's incredible contributions to FOSS - but software liability is best fixed in contracts (where it usually is).

Edit: The only sane way (#) to build liable software is with some form of proof-based modelling - and this is even after decades of research horribly limited and does not reach into areas we wrote or use most software.

I am afraid software is just an extension of the human technology of speech and writing. It is a way to express ourselves in symbolic form outside our brains. It is probably the second most important development in human history - and we need to adapt all of society to be able to harness its benefits without too much harm. The crap IT surrounding us now is the pollution of the first coal driven factories. We will get better - our problem is to do it faster.

On a different note, most software (hence most bad software) is written in house - so the software that makes a bank a bank or a construction company construct, that is mostly already covered by liability. Your bank sends the wrong amount to the wrong bank account? That's been a liability since before the USA was a thing, and so the onus is on the bank to ensure it writes the software correctly. The fact that this is insanely hard implies to me that we need not just "better training for software developers", but "redesign our entire organisations" and probably our whole societies (let's start here: most things written down are done so openly - published or emailed or sent around. Most software code is closed and "proprietary". Change that first)

(#) I can imagine many companies taking on software liability without caring about the risks - but they don't sound like the people I want building airplanes, power stations etc etc.

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#15
post #5

> "If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization." Except that isn’t what software engineers largely do, we aren’t building the nth copy of the same building with a slightly different skin. Those kind of largely canned projects are straightforward and mostly offshored to low cost countries. The other type of project is complex and…

Every building is unique construction project regardless of how much you can save on using existing blueprints or readymade components. You need to consider soils, unevenness of surface, connection to communications and roads etc etc. Construction projects are indeed the same as software projects, when you consider the planning and execution. Even in that some discoveries may happen at the last stages, adjustments have to be made, blueprints have to be changed.

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#17
post #5

> "If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization." Except that isn’t what software engineers largely do, we aren’t building the nth copy of the same building with a slightly different skin. Those kind of largely canned projects are straightforward and mostly offshored to low cost countries. The other type of project is complex and…

> Except that isn’t what software engineers largely do, we aren’t building the nth copy of the same building with a slightly different skin. That’s exactly what most developers do. There is far greater variation in boring bridges spanning small streams than most web applications and yet after more than 20 years we still can’t figure it out without some giant framework to do most of it for us.

Cost of replicating software is near zero, if you want the same thing as the next guy you can have it right now, no schedule risk.

Except that isn’t what they want, they want the same “except for this, and with this extra, and change that…”. And we are back at the discover the spec stage again

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#18

In Quebec/Canada there is this huge company called Trigone. They build all kind of big buildings here and their modus operandi was to create shell companies around Trigone. So the shell company would build the building and instantly bankrupt after. The people who bought part of the new building were stuck with all kind of problems and no way to fight back. The RBQ which is the agency in charge of making sure the rule…

This is also standard for roofing companies in Quebec, I think. They can offer any guarantee they please, since the company won't be around for long enough.

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#19
The customer is paying for it either way. Do you want liability insurance on your critical software project? Sure! But it'll just balloon the already ridiculous costs and a fraction of that money will maybe be spent on educating the engineers and ensuring the system is secure.

On an individual level, expect to see this: "Our records indicate that you have previously committed (a minor, unrelated change) to a software repository that was later exploited, unfortunately we are not able to offer you a position at this time (due to insurance reasons)"

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#20
When it comes down to it, most software bugs don't matter. Reimburse the customer, wait a few days for a dev to fix something, whatever, it'll get resolved and everyone will be whole again. Contrast this with construction, if there's a "bug" in the building, people can die, or lose housing, or companies can lose large amounts of money. Bug in a billing system? Just try and pay again next week.

In industries where software bugs do have large consequences, well they tend to be heavily regulated industries already: finance, aerospace, government systems, automated cars, elevators, medical devices.

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