Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#201

Post by nerbert » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 1:26 PM UTC

AussieWog93 wrote: post #147

asaddhamani wrote: post #11

We need “unprecedented measures” to stop and reverse the “unprecedented” damage we have caused to the planet and its climate. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. Yes, the proposed changes might be inconvenient but it’s time we suck it up and do the needful. Small steps are not good enough. We need drastic measures.

>Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. This same rhetoric has been repeated for decades, and has continually received the same, hostile response from the public and politicians. I'm not arguing that it's wrong or untruthful, but alarmist statements like this are a demonstrably poor tool for rousing the public into action…

Well, thing is the alternative is absolutely possible, and we’re seeing it: people getting more expensive energy prices, mosquitoes appear in regions where they traditionally weren’t, causing health issues, insurance premiums increasing, coverage decreased for some types of events (here in Chicago insurance don’t cover for flooding of your basement). Small steps are certainly being taken by nature to make everything significantly more expansive and less comfortable than they should be. But hey, people who could influence this have the money to cover for that so let’s remain on the status quo a little longer.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#202

Post by ZeroGravitas » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 1:27 PM UTC

turbinerneiter wrote: post #75

wk_end wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the rest of us are subsidizing the externality of the destruction your petrol car is wreaking on the environment. ...also, given that you're calling it a "petrol" car - a Briticism - do you even live in the US? If not, you won't be the one subsidizing it in case this bill comes to pass anyway.

I don't even have a car, why should I subsizide someone elses? They should just not have a car, like me. If that doesn't work where they live, the move to somewhere where it works, and pay absurd rents, like I do. I'm not strictly against the subsizidies, but they have sever social justice implications.

EV subsidies seem to be set at roughly the amount the country will save in various related costs, health from pollution, importing oil, carbon abatement, supporting green grids etc. I'm not sure if thats a coincidence or not, but either way it massively shifts the impact from being benefit to rich person in new EV car to poor person outside EV (or any) car.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#203

Post by nerbert » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 1:29 PM UTC

jay_kyburz wrote: post #46

asaddhamani wrote: post #11

We need “unprecedented measures” to stop and reverse the “unprecedented” damage we have caused to the planet and its climate. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. Yes, the proposed changes might be inconvenient but it’s time we suck it up and do the needful. Small steps are not good enough. We need drastic measures.

Americans (and Australians) will never accept any changes that negatively impact their lives or wallets. Especially when the consequences of climate change are not clear and present. As democracies, we will simply vote out any government that asks us to change our ways. I think Covid19 demonstrates how resistant people are to change, and that they are not willing to make sacrifices for the greater good. Nearly 700,00…

Well that’s not true, they do accept changes that negatively impact their lives, it just has to come from Mother Nature.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#204

Post by da_big_ghey » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 1:29 PM UTC

asaddhamani wrote: post #11

We need “unprecedented measures” to stop and reverse the “unprecedented” damage we have caused to the planet and its climate. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. Yes, the proposed changes might be inconvenient but it’s time we suck it up and do the needful. Small steps are not good enough. We need drastic measures.

assume you do not have damage to the planet as any inherent value. assume also that in rich nation like America we will probably muddle through. this is case of higher risk tolerance, i am unwilling to make a reduced quality of life now for a hedge against the future.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#205

Post by wanderingmind » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 1:30 PM UTC

asaddhamani wrote: post #11

We need “unprecedented measures” to stop and reverse the “unprecedented” damage we have caused to the planet and its climate. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. Yes, the proposed changes might be inconvenient but it’s time we suck it up and do the needful. Small steps are not good enough. We need drastic measures.

Let's see. Maybe we start with a 90% tax above 100K income to pay for climate change costs? Will that be acceptable inconvenience to folks here.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#206

Post by neither_color » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 1:30 PM UTC

user-the-name wrote: post #168

bjt2n3904 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, if someone predicted the apocalypse was right around the corner, and the only way to avert it was to dramatically change my lifestyle in a way that was orthogonal to the catastrophe... I'd say you're peddling religion. Especially if I don't change, and the doomsday prophecies fail. (Again, and again, and again...)

What you want to say is, you don't believe in science.

Science doesn't tell you what to do, only what (probably) is as can be observed and deducted. I can believe in science without believing in your call to action. These past two years have been all about another natural disaster where two sides see the same statistic and come to different conclusions about what to do about it while accusing each other of being anti science

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#207

Post by wwweston » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

andrew_ wrote: post #178

bjt2n3904 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, if someone predicted the apocalypse was right around the corner, and the only way to avert it was to dramatically change my lifestyle in a way that was orthogonal to the catastrophe... I'd say you're peddling religion. Especially if I don't change, and the doomsday prophecies fail. (Again, and again, and again...)

There's been 50 years of climate catastrophe predictions and the one constant is that [everyone] passionate about it has a wicked case of confirmation bias.

Also constant is the fact that the catastrophe continues to unfold at a rate that falls neatly into the uncanny valley between "slow and marginal enough that most human beings can't seem to comprehend it as a catastrophe" (possibly reflected in your comment) and "fast enough at geological and ecological time scales that human beings have fewer tools for predicting what the hell is actually going to happen" (but some of the possibilities look ugly enough to be alarming).

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#208

Post by Monory » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

wanderingmind wrote: post #205

asaddhamani wrote: post #11

We need “unprecedented measures” to stop and reverse the “unprecedented” damage we have caused to the planet and its climate. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. Yes, the proposed changes might be inconvenient but it’s time we suck it up and do the needful. Small steps are not good enough. We need drastic measures.

Let's see. Maybe we start with a 90% tax above 100K income to pay for climate change costs? Will that be acceptable inconvenience to folks here.

Sure, if you get billionaires to pay it, too.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#209

Post by smileysteve » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #190

bryanlarsen wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the most famous speeches in American history: "We choose to go to the Moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too." - Ken…

Which is exactly the problem, the generations of Americans who actually wanted to and were capable of doing great things is long gone. We have since been trained by sociopaths to believe only in sociopathy, to only look out for our own interests and eat our fellow man if it betters our lot, and that this is righteous and good. We have systematically dismantled their great works. If we bank on the will of the American…

This is nostalgia; for every American in the past that dreamed of great things, there is a Snopes, Salem, McCarthy

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#210

Post by amrangaye » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 1:32 PM UTC

AussieWog93 wrote: post #147

asaddhamani wrote: post #11

We need “unprecedented measures” to stop and reverse the “unprecedented” damage we have caused to the planet and its climate. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. Yes, the proposed changes might be inconvenient but it’s time we suck it up and do the needful. Small steps are not good enough. We need drastic measures.

>Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. This same rhetoric has been repeated for decades, and has continually received the same, hostile response from the public and politicians. I'm not arguing that it's wrong or untruthful, but alarmist statements like this are a demonstrably poor tool for rousing the public into action…

But is it really “alarmism” to yell at people inside a house on fire that they need to “get the hell out now!” even if some people in a separate part of the building (not touched by the fire yet) insist that the growing heat is due to something else, God has it in control and would never set the fire, in fact the people yelling out the warnings are just being “alarmist”, it’s against their constitutional rights etc? We really don’t have time at the moment to resort to gentle persuasion techniques (on a group I might add who are ready to never become convinced because they dismiss every rational argument and all the data). It may not work in a country as politically divided as the US, but trying to convince (the right especially) will achieve nothing but waste time that could be better spent elsewhere. Those who are not persuaded at this point are not going to be just because we approach them with more gentleness or empathy or whatever.