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U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

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Re: U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

#231
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure I understand what you’re trying to say. Above, you made some speculative claims that the endangered species caused the property owner to experience increased hardship in using their land. Research in this thread that others have done has shown that wasn’t the case, and yet you persist in pitching speculatively that perhaps they had their property taken away. What is the statement you’re trying to make, a…

The increased hardship for landowners post 1973 is fact. The endangered species act turns affected land into a liability instead of being an asset. The original response was that if they were able to enjoy the use of their land before 1973, then there was no harm done. 1) Which doesn't mean the harm/hardship didn't come into play in 1973 once the law was passed. It did. The land would have lost significant value over…

I think the issue here is just that

>the landowner of that 1944 sighting

can be read in two ways. I assume you meant the person who owned that land when it was taken away, and that's how I read it. But it's not unreasonable to interpret it as the person who owned it at the time of the sighting.

Re: U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

#232
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Climate is cyclical. Species come and go. We don't mourn the dinosaurs. We are too small and insignificant to make any true, lasting impact. Nature will heal itself given enough time, and new species will emerge. Humans will feel the effects of climate change. The Earth will be fine.

The naturalist fallacy, in a nutshell.

Surely the same fallacy is the reason we care about these species in the first place?

You can kind of make an argument from entropy, an extinction cuts off our access to information about a species. But if that were the reason, taking samples for DNA and then killing off the animals would be okay. We care about extinction because we like nature and want to preserve it.

Re: U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying that "but for" corporate/capitalistic influence, government would be benevolent is very much implying that countries without capitalism shouldn't have corruption.

Who said that? There's a bunch of comments saying lobbying makes things worse than not having lobbying. I don't see the ones saying that's the only source of problems?

I think the argument is that absent corporate lobbying, politicians can still be influenced. Something else will fill the position, and the total amount of influence over politicians not granted democratically will be unchanged. Maybe that's still through money, but taken as direct bribes under the table, or maybe it's populism, or something else entirely.

I don't know if that's true. I also don't know if what replaced campaign contributions would be better or worse.

I do know that lobbying is itself overstated. In 1999, the GDP was 10 trillion. 3 billion, or 0.03%, of that went into politics, mostly from individual donors rather than companies [1]. If lobbying were an effective way to buy political influence, more companies would shell out. Maybe it's already happening under the table, though.

[1][pdf] http://www.nber.org/papers/w9409.pdf

Re: U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

#234
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't expect things to change much with corporate's death grip on the government. Statements like this always imply that if the government ran the businesses (socialism) things like this wouldn't happen. But the evidence is it is worse . The USSR had major problems with their heavily polluting industries, which persist today.

The USSR was a communists country. There is a world of difference between Social Democratic (i.e. socialism) countries like Finland, Sweden, Norway for example and the USSR. The hint is right there in the title, democratic. The USSR never had a functioning democracy.

Finland, Norway, and Sweden are all capitalist countries. They just have better welfare institutions than the US.

Re: U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

#235
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't expect things to change much with corporate's death grip on the government. Statements like this always imply that if the government ran the businesses (socialism) things like this wouldn't happen. But the evidence is it is worse . The USSR had major problems with their heavily polluting industries, which persist today.

The USSR was a communists country. There is a world of difference between Social Democratic (i.e. socialism) countries like Finland, Sweden, Norway for example and the USSR. The hint is right there in the title, democratic. The USSR never had a functioning democracy.

There is a difference between "social" and "socialism". The social welfare state was invented by Bismarck in order to fight socialism.

Thus calling it "socialist" is a pretty gross error. Indeed the foreign minster of Denmark had to plead with uninformed Americans to please stop calling his nation "socialist" when it is a social democracy - this was back when Bernie was running as a democratic socialist and his schtick to try to normalize socialism was by saying Denmark had it which lead to this mess of misinformation.

The idea of social democracy is that you have social welfare programs. That is, you tax private industry and give the money to people for things like pensions (which is exactly what Bismarck did, and this basic model has not changed since it was developed in 19th C Germany).

Socialism is the idea that private ownership of the means of production be banned (thus you cannot own your own business). In communism, all private property is banned (thus you don't even own your clothes, or car, or apartment).

Obviously the utopia of banning all private property was impractical, but seizing factories was more practical. Thus even those nations that were controlled by communist parties officially declared that they had not reached communism, they were in the state of socialism, and were working towards, or "building" communism. This led to many jokes in the Eastern Bloc about when the building of communism would be completed and how could it be done with all the shortages, etc. That is why all the communist nations called themselves socialist. Now you know the difference between communism and socialism.

What about socialism versus democracy. Here the problem is the enormous amount of totalitarian government control needed to organize production based on political concerns rather than concerns of price -- e.g. market concerns. Even if you are just a painter, you need paint. How do you get the paint? You have to requisition it based on some political justification. Now the government needs to plan how much paint is produced each year. Then you need to plan how many paint buckets and paint brushes. It goes on and on. There were mathematicians working full time on these linear programming problems in the soviet union, just trying to figure out how to plan their economy. Imagine all the inputs you need, imagine writing them down, and requisitioning them, as part of a big five year plan.

This requires a vast array of secret police and government micromanagement and that is what makes socialism not free. Whereas the genius of Bismarck is that he understood that workers just wanted pensions, and did not care so much about political organization of the process of production. So it's a lot easier to tax private enterprise -- something that was done even in ancient Mesopotamia -- rather than trying to control the process of production. Thus social welfare states are more "free" than socialist states, and no socialist state can be free, it must be micromanaged by the Party. Nevertheless they all called themselves Democratic. E.g. the Democratic Republic of Germany.

Thus we have these two types of economies, the social welfare state and the "democratic" socialist state, but they are not gradations on the same scale, they are two rival approaches to the problem of providing a basic safety net for the people.

In one approach you do it by taxing and giving people money who then go out and buy what they need on the open market, and in the other by political administration of production and then political distribution of production to those groups you believe "deserve" the output the most.

It is not two ends of the same scale.

Re: U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like there were a lot more bugs that would get splattered on cars in the 90s than they do now.

That’s almost entirely aerodynamics. I recently drove a boxy truck from the 90s on the same stretch I’ve driven bug-free and had a deja vu from how bug-splattered the windshield was.

This news [0] article makes it seem like there was an 80% decline in bugs over the last 30 years.

[0] https://apnews.com/article/insects-pa-state-wire-ap-top-news...

Re: U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

#237

All these extinction woes boil down to irrational fear that one day the wildlife will disappear from the planet. Evolution itself works through extinctions. Number of extinct species are billions and billions. Species do not disappear leaving an empty space—their places are taken by other creatures. People who wish that a certain ecosystem and its species remain intact forever grossly contradict the theory of evoluti…

If you had an incredibly slow random number generator, I think you actually would care.

Re: U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

#238

Scientists have a recording of the mating call of the last known Kauaʻi ʻōʻō that could never be answered. https://youtu.be/5THqAY3u5oY?t=44 "That's the last male of a species... singing for a female, who will never come.... he is totally alone.... and now his voice is gone." I find that to be very sad

Even more tragic is that after the bird flew away the scientist played back the recording and the endling returned, thinking it another from its own species.

Re: U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I've been indoctrinated into the horrible belief that the lives of other living things on this earth matter.

The horrible part is not the believing, but the condemning of non-believers.

Yes non believers who believe that no life matters but their own. Very important to let them continue to destroy the world

Re: U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

#240
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The naturalist fallacy, in a nutshell.

Surely the same fallacy is the reason we care about these species in the first place? You can kind of make an argument from entropy, an extinction cuts off our access to information about a species. But if that were the reason, taking samples for DNA and then killing off the animals would be okay. We care about extinction because we like nature and want to preserve it.

It cuts both ways. Having more species is not inherently better.

Climate change is a battle against ourselves, for ourselves. We will be the ones to pay the cost (potentially with our lives, or way of life at the very least); nature will persevere whether we win or lose.

Life will always find a way no matter how much humans (or ice ages, or asteroids, or whatever) screw up this planet.

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