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Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

theguardian.com

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Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#121

Post by dillondoyle »

stormbrew wrote: post #44
throwawaysea wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This bill isn’t a focused climate or infrastructure bill. That’s the marketing dressing for a widely scoped bill where only 23% of spending is for infrastructure. In actuality it includes many radically left-leaning policies, which moderates on neither side of the aisle can support. A prominent example is that it included changes to immigration that would grant citizenship for 8 million illegal immigrants, which luck…

> intends to reshape the electorate and dilute the voting interests of legal citizens Even if this characterization of the bill were accurate, those people would then be legal citizens. Are they then diluting their own voting interests? At any rate people being born also dilutes voting interests, should we end that too, or are only people born to it inherently worthy of citizenship? Anyways, what, precisely, makes th…

Many of them are DREAMers too

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#122

Post by cm2187 »

shkkmo wrote: post #102
cm2187 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the reason why they are bulked into a single bill is to utilise the budget reconciliation procedure which bypasses the filibuster. I think the filibuster has some merit. If you want to do something controversial (to the point that the opponents are willing to do the physical effort of making speeches 24h a day to stop it), there must be a strong majority of 60%, not just 50%. But there must be some sort of cost t…

> to the point that the opponents are willing to do the physical effort of making speeches 24h a day to stop it That is a common misconception. The modern filibuster doesn't actually require legislators to work that hard and is now generally purely procedural.

I agree, it used to, and it should. There must be some sort of penalty to use it only when it really matters, and a physical penalty is one way to do it.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#123

Post by nvr219 »

fdschoeneman wrote: post #101

There are lots of reasons to oppose this bill; why assume climate change is the only reason? And if it's fair to assume the opposition is to the portion of these taxes and regulations meant to address climate change, why assume the opposition is to efforts to remediate climate change writ large when the opposition might just be to these specific measures? Also, why is explicitly political stuff, let alone badly writt…

What makes this badly written?

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#124

Post by legulere »

akomtu wrote: post #47

If software was developed the way politicians pass laws, Linux would get one master commit every few years with thousands of unrelated things in it, from typo fixes to sketchy telemetry, with a 1500 pages long description, and the commit would be branded as "build security better". The review would be a months long show where maintainers of all factions with their own agendas would try to negotiate behind the closed…

The difference between law and software is that with law you have more disadvantages from churn. Companies depend on stable legal situations, and it's important for people in the law system to keep up with changes.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#126

Post by Glench »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #46
asaddhamani wrote: post #11

We need “unprecedented measures” to stop and reverse the “unprecedented” damage we have caused to the planet and its climate. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. Yes, the proposed changes might be inconvenient but it’s time we suck it up and do the needful. Small steps are not good enough. We need drastic measures.

Americans (and Australians) will never accept any changes that negatively impact their lives or wallets. Especially when the consequences of climate change are not clear and present. As democracies, we will simply vote out any government that asks us to change our ways. I think Covid19 demonstrates how resistant people are to change, and that they are not willing to make sacrifices for the greater good. Nearly 700,00…

> Americans (and Australians) will never accept any changes that negatively impact their lives or wallets.

Luckily, a lot of the electrification parts of the climate bill will save Americans (and Australians) money without changing lifestyles — same size homes, cars, etc — just electrified. Electric machinery is just that much more efficient.

Rewiring America and Rewiring Australia have the actual numbers: https://www.rewiringamerica.org/ and https://www.rewiringaustralia.org/

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#127

Post by manigandham »

hef19898 wrote: post #59
jay_kyburz wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans (and Australians) will never accept any changes that negatively impact their lives or wallets. Especially when the consequences of climate change are not clear and present. As democracies, we will simply vote out any government that asks us to change our ways. I think Covid19 demonstrates how resistant people are to change, and that they are not willing to make sacrifices for the greater good. Nearly 700,00…

And there lies the difference that made my grandparents generation, albeit on the Allied side of WW2, the greatest generation. Not the willingness to go to war, that was enforced by drafts all over the globe back then. It was rather the total revamping of the economy, industry and society to support the war against the Nazis and Imperial Japanese. The UK went to rationing, and still people carried on in global strugg…

The US government has a problem with wasteful spending, not collecting enough money. Higher taxes will just mean more waste.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#128

Post by berkes »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #116
AniseAbyss wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lifestyle changes are going to be inevitable, one way or the other.

I don't think that's a given for people alive today. Climate change happens on a global scale, not a human scale. People wont "feel" it's change. I'm happy to make sacrifices, but a lot of vocal people are not. We need to stop talking about "making sacrifices". We need to get people excited about the amazing opportunities all this work provides us. It's exciting to me that we need to replant our forests. We have new…

> People wont "feel" it's change.

Oh, but 'people' feel its change. You feel it.

But it is all secondary, or even further away. Coffee is more expensive. Gas (CNG) prices is already costing many households more in these summer months. Gasoline prices are at record hights. Water is increasing in price. Electricity prices are at record heights (which, is increasing my IT infrastructure bills). In many regions we cannot get certain potatoes doe to crops failing. And so on.

You see the effects, when you look for em. In your wallet. On your table. In your bottom lines and revenues.

So, aside from the opportunities we may see, there are effects having impact on average peoples live this very moment

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#129

Post by hihihihi1234 »

m_eiman wrote: post #36
cscurmudgeon wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No other country (democracy or not) has such a huge influx of legal and illegal immigrants and a laughably porous border. The US admits more people than the populations of some these democracies that people compare the US with. You can have a huge welfare state or open borders but not both. Unless the US invents a perpetual motion machine. Edit: downvotes and running away, the mark of a rational mind

https://www.amazon.com/Open-Borders-Science-Ethics-Immigrati...

Congratulations, you've proved that someone somewhere has written a book that argues for open borders.

There's also a book called "Nobody Died at Sandy Hook", which argues that the Sandy Hook massacre was a hoax staged by the Obama administration as a pretext to take everybody's guns away. People can write and publish books about anything.

Care to make an actual argument?

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#130

Post by dillondoyle »

b112 wrote: post #45
zimpenfish wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/571724-democrats-make-ca... It doesn't "grant citizenship", just provides a pathway for "Dreamers, temporary protected status holders, agricultural and other essential workers" to "getting permanent legal status or a green card". Which may then lead to citizenship if they meet the requirements.

Ah. So it does have more than climate change issues in it. As a Canuck, I see this as a huge US weakness. These megabills, riders and such. The parent's point is valid. If people cared, really, really cared, it would be a single purpose bill. It would be more effective too, in that, people could legitimately say... this is only about climate change. Nothing else. What part of this do you object to? Right now, it clea…

If you take it a step further, ask why do we need to use reconciliation and a single megabill, the problem becomes the Senate.

The Senate already gives heavy weight to less populated conservative states. add the filibuster rule - which a simple majority can get rid of - and it just amplifies the power of white, conservative men who vote to get re-elected or build for a presidential run. They're voting for what appeals to something like less than 40% of the population.

We're talking about giving DREAMers a path to citizenship which is supported by over 75% of voters...

I think people really care. It isn't their top issue but it has very broad support.

it does look like there is some movement on a standalone bill with at least a couple Republicans supporting it. But I wouldn't hold my breath though. [1]

As the original comment shows, one side views it as a 'power grab' to 'dilute' voting power... That's a pretty narrow view and to me reads a small shade of likely racial bias.

And back to state elections of Senators, that rhetoric is what wins votes for many of these Rs and that's what drives their decision making. Money too. But that's used to win votes.

One hears the same argument against universal vote-by-mail and other anti-suppression measures. A 'vote grab'.. yeah that's the point we should encourage more people to vote!

1: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/15/us/politics/congress-docu...

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