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Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

theguardian.com

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Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#51

Post by apendleton »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #31
optimiz3 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if the vehicle is built in a union shop, which the leading EV manufacturer is not. The credit is significantly reduced otherwise. Also, gas burning PHEVs (Prius) count as EVs which is such a limp handout to legacy auto and does little to push R&D forward.

Honestly, I'll never understand American politics. Linking a EV tax credit to unionisation just boggles my mind.

It's basically a bribe -- there was pretty well-sourced reporting that UAW was going to lobby against the electric vehicle package because electric require less manufacturing labor than ICE cars do (ugh), so this was the way to buy them off. It's sort of annoying, but probably tactically the right move given how much power labor has in Democratic politics.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#52

Post by roenxi »

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #17
nverno wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Opposing it means you oppose ... If life were so simple. Of course, the reality is this bill covers everything from child tax credits, paid leaves, to god knows what else.

Oh no, god forbid we try to drag ourselves into the 21st century, and get somewhere close to what every other modern democracy has offered for decades.

You say that, but I get the feeling we've been here before. Pretty much every time there is an ambitious and expensive spending bill after a couple of years it turns out that the 21st century is still ahead. Eg, Obamacare would probably have been described as dragging the US into the 21st century and getting somewhere close to what every other modern democracy has offered for decades. And yet it turned out not to, the rhetoric is still that US healthcare is pretty bad.

There needs to be some scepticism about what these bills actually achieve rather than what people would like them to attempt to achieve. And when trillions are involved there is going to be massive corruption in the political process.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#53

Post by cm2187 »

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #17
nverno wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Opposing it means you oppose ... If life were so simple. Of course, the reality is this bill covers everything from child tax credits, paid leaves, to god knows what else.

Oh no, god forbid we try to drag ourselves into the 21st century, and get somewhere close to what every other modern democracy has offered for decades.

So it seems you agree this is not about climate change.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#54

Post by throwawaysea »

sofixa wrote: post #41
cscurmudgeon wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No other country (democracy or not) has such a huge influx of legal and illegal immigrants and a laughably porous border. The US admits more people than the populations of some these democracies that people compare the US with. You can have a huge welfare state or open borders but not both. Unless the US invents a perpetual motion machine. Edit: downvotes and running away, the mark of a rational mind

Are you sure? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_mig... I see Austria, Belgium, UK, Germany, Denmark, Italy accepting more immigrants per capita than the US. In many of those countries, the "huge welfare states" have prerequisites ( for instance you can't just come in as an economic migrant and ask for unemployment benefits). Furthermore, i thought the US was the richest country - it certainly h…

None of those countries offer birthright citizenship: https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-who-offer-birt...

That changes the political and migration dynamics significantly.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#55

Post by throwawaysea »

zimpenfish wrote: post #43
aerosmile wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never heard this particular angle on this bill, and would hope that it's wrong. Can someone confirm/deny with some references?

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/571724-democrats-make-ca... It doesn't "grant citizenship", just provides a pathway for "Dreamers, temporary protected status holders, agricultural and other essential workers" to "getting permanent legal status or a green card". Which may then lead to citizenship if they meet the requirements.

I feel like the distinction you’re making is not particularly interesting. It grants a pathway to citizenship to likely-Democrat voters who currently don’t have a pathway to citizenship. So sure there is a process, but it doesn’t change the impact of such a policy.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#56

Post by Aunche »

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #17
nverno wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Opposing it means you oppose ... If life were so simple. Of course, the reality is this bill covers everything from child tax credits, paid leaves, to god knows what else.

Oh no, god forbid we try to drag ourselves into the 21st century, and get somewhere close to what every other modern democracy has offered for decades.

I'm sure many of these things are worthwhile, but a climate change is a big enough problem by itself. If you try to do everything at once, you're likely fail them all.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#57

Post by cm2187 »

djbebs wrote: post #7
aaronbrethorst wrote: post #6

The Build Back Better bill (or reconciliation bill) is the only real climate legislation that will plausibly be signed into law in the United States in the 2020s. It offers a meaningful path forward for the US to curb its carbon emissions. Opposing it means you oppose doing anything about mitigating the climate crisis within the United States from a federal legislative perspective within a timeframe where we can reas…

So its not revenue neutral.

or another way to put it: https://babylonbee.com/news/thief-assures-victim-the-robbery...

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#58

Post by allendoerfer »

roenxi wrote: post #52
aaronbrethorst wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh no, god forbid we try to drag ourselves into the 21st century, and get somewhere close to what every other modern democracy has offered for decades.

You say that, but I get the feeling we've been here before. Pretty much every time there is an ambitious and expensive spending bill after a couple of years it turns out that the 21st century is still ahead. Eg, Obamacare would probably have been described as dragging the US into the 21st century and getting somewhere close to what every other modern democracy has offered for decades. And yet it turned out not to, th…

Fallacy. A step in the right direction is still better than taking no step at all.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#59

Post by hef19898 »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #46
asaddhamani wrote: post #11

We need “unprecedented measures” to stop and reverse the “unprecedented” damage we have caused to the planet and its climate. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. Yes, the proposed changes might be inconvenient but it’s time we suck it up and do the needful. Small steps are not good enough. We need drastic measures.

Americans (and Australians) will never accept any changes that negatively impact their lives or wallets. Especially when the consequences of climate change are not clear and present. As democracies, we will simply vote out any government that asks us to change our ways. I think Covid19 demonstrates how resistant people are to change, and that they are not willing to make sacrifices for the greater good. Nearly 700,00…

And there lies the difference that made my grandparents generation, albeit on the Allied side of WW2, the greatest generation. Not the willingness to go to war, that was enforced by drafts all over the globe back then. It was rather the total revamping of the economy, industry and society to support the war against the Nazis and Imperial Japanese. The UK went to rationing, and still people carried on in global struggle. The US produced all of three cars between 41 and 45 (I d have to look up sources here...). And don't even think about the hardships the USSR went through.

And here we are, pampered boomers and millenials, in a society so selfish and profit and status oriented that we are not willing to accept the slightest inconveniences, or god forbid tax increase, to tackle one of the biggest challenges we ever faced.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#60

Post by hnlmorg »

wk_end wrote: post #32
perryizgr8 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where’s the inconvenience? I don't want to buy a new electric car. I have a perfectly working petrol car. Why should I subsidize some rich guy's fancy new electric toy?

Because the rest of us are subsidizing the externality of the destruction your petrol car is wreaking on the environment. ...also, given that you're calling it a "petrol" car - a Briticism - do you even live in the US? If not, you won't be the one subsidizing it in case this bill comes to pass anyway.

> also, given that you're calling it a "petrol" car - a Briticism

"Petrol" is the more common term. If anything, "gasoline" is an Americanism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#Etymology

> In most Commonwealth countries, the product is called "petrol", rather than "gasoline"

> The use of the word gasoline instead of petrol is uncommon outside North America,

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