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Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

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Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You act like fucking up is the end of the world. In my experience, when someone "fucks up", I can reflect on my rapport with that person to determine whether or not it was intentional. Either way, I can say something to them about it. It is a sign of maturity to say "oh, I'm sorry. I didn't think that my words could be perceived in that way. My intent was.." If your intent is harmful, that's great, because I can help…

> You act like fucking up is the end of the world. People stopped forgiving and forgetting years ago. Every mistake people make follows them forever now. “Fucking up” is the end of the world for their careers since nobody wants to hire somebody who was publicly outed on Twitter for whatever they allegedly did Apparently people who are concerned with this are “not willing to accept the effort of empathy”?

I think you're overlooking the role that rapport plays in this. If you don't have a rapport (it's a new relationship, for example), one doesn't have that to rely on (this describes a significant portion of online interactions, like this one!).

If one has a solid rapport with someone, and that person says something that one find upsetting, one's much less likely to attribute that behavior to malice, because rapport is just social context.

> Apparently people who are concerned with this are “not willing to accept the effort of empathy”?

I think a more accurate thing to say is that those who are harmed and cannot contextualize it to be reasonable are not willing to enable that harmful behavior by the person that has harmed them. Empathy is just the act of "putting yourself in someone else's shoes to gain respect for their perspective". I can empathize with an asshole and decide that their behavior needs to be called out _despite_ OR _because of_ the context I have for that person (e.g. I might be more likely to call out inappropriate behavior in those with power than in those without power, with whom I might work more closely to come to an understanding privately, as there's really no use kicking someone when they're down).

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#512
post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I’m saying that this joke shouldn’t, in my books, count as sexist. I’m just saying it’s not that funny, or overly tasteful. Like documenting a “shrink” function with “men won’t use it for fear of having their willies shrunk”. If you’re making a joke about something, make it more funny than offensive. A very unfunny joke has a low tolerance on offence :)

Probably depends on the person. I personally love offensive jokes. Book of Mormon is one of my favourite shows, and I can't really think of a group/sect/principle they don't offend.

OK well there you go, it's more funny than offensive (at least to you). That's "fine" I think.

If the person you offend laughs as opposed to being angry, it can't be that bad.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#513
post #377

Please tell me that this Code of Conducts are all jokes? I've developed a fragile and basic rule which I try to follow: Don't be an asshole. I fail sometimes following that rule and I don't deny it. I struggle to become better but keep going. Of course you could extend this by "Help others, when appropriate", "Be nice to each other", "Use common sense", "Pardon others", "Don't be a d***", "Don't be a b*****" but that…

> Don't be an asshole. A whole lot of the reasonable parts of "woke" boil down to a few things: (1) Don't be an asshole. (2) Don't meddle in the affairs of others if those affairs do not concern you. (3) Evaluate other people from first principles and starting with a positive assumption, and check yourself for subconscious biases against groups of people that you might have picked up without really thinking about the…

[deleted]

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#514
I can see the logic in prohibiting abusive behaviour on lists and other such fora and maintaining it that way. I can also see that the line won't be clear and there will be several special cases that have to be dealt with on a one-by-one basis. Mistakes will be made on both sides but people have to be mature enough to move on.

One thing that I'd like to see more of is CoC's being scoped to a certain list, event or something that's clearly definable rather than a broad vague entity like "the community". If someone behaves in a certain way on a forum other than the one for which the CoC applies, it shouldn't be usable to enforce punitive action like expulsion.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No links to the joke. It's quoted in the GitHub link, and presumably it'd be trivial to find in the list archives. This isn't as benign as you characterize it, since it's basically "this date handling bug must have been created by a woman since women lie about their age". Lazy misogyny is still misogyny. > Is it professional to make such a joke on a ruby mailing list? I understand what you're doing here ( https://r…

The way you wrote made me go check the joke... and found out actually I disagree with you. The joke was that the bug could be caused because it was written FOR a woman, not BY a woman.

So still misogyny.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my many misgivings about CoCs is their over-reliance on the unenforcable. This is an excellent example - because the original said exactly what needed to be said, but it wasn't being interpreted correctly. Instead of improving the wording, and saying something like "participants should always assume good intentions. However, intention does not make a person's actions immune from criticism, and while assuming g…

Why is there a protected party? Why can't everyone be protected only a few?

This is a complicated question, and for those new to this kind of discussion, it deserves a complicated answer. This is not that answer, but here are some thoughts:

a) We are a reactionary species, unfortunately. And that served us well when the burning questions of the day were "Tiger friend? [BITE] No, tiger never friend" but less so when discussing the social weight felt by minority and historically persecuted groups, the benefits and pitfalls of hyper-vocal "allies" and the social disenfranchisement felt by potential allies bitten by persecutions that they are told do not exist.

b) We are a reductionist species, unfortunately. That helps us when understanding the complexities of mathematical infinities and physics and the workings of the human central nervous system, because - between similarly educated peers - a scientific community can abstract away the irrelevent bits and share groundbreaking research outcomes with relative ease. But when "normals" try to enter the discussion, they mistake the simplified abstract descriptions for a simple concept and end up contributing nonesense or reporting falsehoods to the rest of the world (e.g. are we moments away from fusion generators? Are we on the cusp of ignition? No, no we're not).

And so, when discussions take place about the relative protections and privileges inherent with social majority groups and justify the particular resource expenditure on helping to rebalance centuries of systemic prejudices, people will misread what they understand of the zeitgeist and say "Your social privilege, as defined by your [race / gender / sexuality / ability / age / etc] means that your feelings need no consideration"

c) We are a self-absorbed species, unfortunately. It contributes to our survival and that of our dependants to ensure that we take the resources we need so that we are in a position to then help the rest of our clan. Weirdly though, we also have faculties for patience and imagination. And so we are happy to imagine ourselves in the shoes of someone we consider as "sufficiently other" to the point where we will fight for them as if they are our own clan, which is in a way wonderful (not always - see "white saviourism") but it means that those similar enough to be relatable receive a negative consideration, being not different enough to be worth the emotional investment, but not similar enough that they are truly "in the same boat", though we feel like they are. For example, try to analyse your perceptions of the poor and homeless that live near you, compared to the poor and starving people from distant countries.

It just "feels different", right?

That "local mistrust" is just as much an undeserved prejudice as the fact that you probably imagined those "people from a distant country" with a particular skin colour.

And lastly:

d) Our emotions deceive us constantly. That small racism dig in part C - if that affected you (sorry!) might make you susceptible to further emotional manipulation, because (see A) we are a reactionary species, and so from there it's easy for someone to manipulate us to reduce (see B) the world into "overprivileged vs underprivileged" clans, take on the underprivileged as our own (see C) and thereby increase our prejudice under the guise of eliminating prejudice.

Then echo chambers, then reinforcement by media, friends, catchy superficial soundbites, our employment... and finally our own selves, because once you've declared your unwavering support for a vaguely positive cause, it's very hard to walk that back.

And convincing someone to reverse a commitment they have made that has superficially positive soundbites because they are taking a damaging approach is a lot harder than reversing a prejudice they fell into through normal upbringing.

Maybe, long-term, that isn't a problem. Over the generations, we'll react ourselves to a position where everyone is protected. Short-term though, we'll have to use our privilege to be a force for good in between protected factions.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#517
post #406

I wish we responded to situations more proportionally. In this case, someone made a joke about women not liking to reveal their true age as they get older. It's a boring cliched joke. Something I've heard too many times in my life (and, most often from women). Is it sexist? I can see the argument. Is it professional to make such a joke on a ruby mailing list? I don't know, perhaps not. Does it warrant responses like…

You are asking all the right questions... And you will never get an acceptable answer beyond "Some times you need to break a few eggs to make an omelette." Sadly, the CoC wars were lost several years ago. The victors had the simplest tactic: projection. "We are just against all the bad things. We are anti-racist, anti-sexist, anti-prejudice. Why aren't you on our side?" Well, I have two things to say. First, I eagerl…

I don't think the CoC wars are lost, I'm hopefully we're on the cusp of the backlash.

The first project that succeeds with a CoC of "sticks and stones may break your bones but words can never harm you." is going to be a watershed moment that can recruit the growing population who are sick and tired of the leftist mob and their thought policing.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#518
I can’t believe this “CoC” meme actually propagated.

Project maintainers should assess whether these CoC pushers are actually bringing any value to the project.

These CoC’s feel like a way to remove someone you don’t like from a project without any real productive basis. A weapon used by folks who like to feel self righteous when they “cancel” people who don’t align with their ideologies.

Adults don’t need a “Code of Conduct” to know they should be civil and respectful. If there’s to be a CoC it should only state “get rid of anything that gets in the way of good code” and they should start by booting these CoC nazis who are making their childish fragility’s other peoples problems.

Don’t like something someone said? Talk to them personally before wasting people’s time and resources.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#519
post #490
post #406

I wish we responded to situations more proportionally. In this case, someone made a joke about women not liking to reveal their true age as they get older. It's a boring cliched joke. Something I've heard too many times in my life (and, most often from women). Is it sexist? I can see the argument. Is it professional to make such a joke on a ruby mailing list? I don't know, perhaps not. Does it warrant responses like…

> Does it warrant responses like "Knock that bullshit off." or "you made an ass of yourself"... I don't know. Seems a little ironic to use unprofessional language in this situation. Maybe even worse than the joke itself? I don't know. In my experience this kind of stuff is extremely counter-productive. It puts people in the defensive, and remember, you haven't actually said anything: you only gave them a (somewhat ru…

So in the name of being inclusive they're bullying someone who is not a native English speaker for not knowing the nuances of political correctness in a foreign culture? Cool cool.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#520
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit buried in the GH discussion, but someone else posted it here: "Maybe this has been written for women, having calculated their age ;)" If I were in charge of a community or mailing list, I would kick the person who wrote that off. But I simply don't see how (a) the existing rules didn't do enough to cover this, or (b) the changes will resolve those issues without causing other problems.

As I understand it, some people who want to make sexist jokes on the mailing list with impunity pointed to the language about tolerating opposing views to claim that their desire to belittle women on the mailing list must be tolerated. Maybe they should point to Karl Popper's paradox of tolerance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance edit: evidently someone thinks this comment is worthy of a downvote. I…

> Maybe they should point to Karl Popper's paradox of tolerance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

From Popper's own words at the link:

> In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise.

Can sexist humour be kept in check with rational argument and public opinion?

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