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Treating beef like coal would make a big dent in greenhouse-gas emissions

economist.com

131–140 of 344 posts

Re: Treating beef like coal would make a big dent in greenhouse-gas emissions

#131
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better than being headed into a new medieval era because climate change caused civilization to collapse.

Climate change already caused civilization to collapse 20 years ago according to this article published in 1990: https://apnews.com/article/bd45c372caf118ec99964ea547880cd0 >" UNITED NATIONS (AP) _ A senior U.N. environmental official says entire nations could be wiped off the face of the Earth by rising sea levels if the global warming trend is not reversed by the year 2000. Coastal flooding and crop failures would…

That quote doesn't support your hot take at all.

> if the global warming trend is not reversed by the year 2000

The trend was not reversed, so now we wait to see if the prediction comes true. Given the low lying geography of some nations (esp pacific islands) I would bet money that this does indeed come true in the future.

Nowhere in the quote does it say, as you claim, that civilization would collapse in 2000.

Re: Treating beef like coal would make a big dent in greenhouse-gas emissions

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, we absolutely need the government to tell people what they’re allowed to eat.

yes that already exists, last time i checked governments don't like it when people eat other people;

Or depending on where you live horses, cats and dogs.

Re: Treating beef like coal would make a big dent in greenhouse-gas emissions

#133
post #85

> The simplest way to cut beef output is for people to eat other animals instead, or become vegetarians. That’s like, in 1900, saying “the simplest way to prevent road deaths is for everyone to drive slower.” That’s not simple at all - that’s an intractable group behavior problem. What you really need is for the government to come along and put up speed limits. Most people will push those rules, a few will flout them…

Yes, we absolutely need the government to tell people what they’re allowed to eat.

Maybe read the entire comment before replying to it.

Re: Treating beef like coal would make a big dent in greenhouse-gas emissions

#134

It feels like we are headed into a new medieval era of sumptuary laws and moral decrees promulgated by a decentralized international clerical-academic class. I don't think I like it very much

Moralizing can work, though. Recall slavery, child labor, feminism, equal rights, welfare (,healthcare outside the USA).

Plant based meat substitutes will improve (via the production learning curve and competition) if there is enough demand.

(According to this article that attracted much comment[1] a few days ago, though, artificial meat is a non-starter.)

1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28621288

Re: Treating beef like coal would make a big dent in greenhouse-gas emissions

#135
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better than being headed into a new medieval era because climate change caused civilization to collapse.

Revealed preferences don't match that rhetoric. - People are not migrating North in droves. They are not preparing in any way. - Nuclear energy, the only realistic solution to climate change, is not being supported. It's actually being retired early in many cases and replaced with coal of all things. - Property prices on the coastline are going up. President Obama, who has access to the best information and experts,…

> People are not migrating North in droves

Yes, because - you might be surprised to hear - people actually like to life where they are born and raised and require catastrophic hardship (such as the Syrian civil war) to actually start a migration.

Re: Treating beef like coal would make a big dent in greenhouse-gas emissions

#136
post #86

I disagree, its a percentage of roughly 10% according to the EPA in 2019. Here are the EPA statistics. https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emis... I am all for replacing them with native buffalo, but this is overemphasis on minute percentages, this information presented is much too technology based and not practical, it relies on assumptions about plant based foods and lab meat (farming crops is t…

We have to simultaneously lower emissions in all sectors if we want to prevent catastrophic warming. 10% is massive.

How much resistance and effort for 100% of beef, which is a part of 10% are you willing to expend to push for elimination versus transportation at 29% and electicity usage at 25%? To put it into perspective, how would you focus energy on lowering output out of 100% of your personal energy? https://cfpub.epa.gov/ghgdata/inventoryexplorer/

Re: Treating beef like coal would make a big dent in greenhouse-gas emissions

#137
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are its main points?

Arguments that meat take an excessive amount of resources are disingenuous because those resources cannot simply be translated to other uses, examples being that the water use example many tout uses rainwater would fall anyways, that livestock will eventually urinate meaning it isn't actually lost, and land used for livestock is mostly non arable land and therefore cant be used for producing crops anyways. Also there…

Some counter points:

1. The number is around 14.5% in direct global emissions [1] according to the FAO, I cannot find any reputable source saying anywhere as low as 2.5%

2. Beef has roughly ten times more carbon footprint as Chicken. Beef has by far the highest CO2 equivalent per KG of product among any food [2] at 99.8Kg CO2 Equivalent, lamb / mutton comes a distant second at around 40Kg and Pork / Poultry are around 12/9 respectively [3] .

3. Looking at American consumption and emissions in isolation is disingenuous, USA alone exported 2.2 Billion pounds and imported 4.4 Billion pounds of beef and cattle in 2020.

4. Beef related food production is the leading cause of deforestation in many countries including Brazil [4] and a lot of it is export driven. There is additional secondary emissions due to this type of deforestation .

5. In addition there is substantial growth in amount of meat consumes as a country develops the impact of this industry is not just current emissions [5]

6. A lot the byproducts that become animal feed can also become fertilizer, if used in feed stock then likely it is organic and therefore contains fertilizer components such as Potassium , Nitrates etc that can be processed as fertilizer .

7. Even if there was zero emissions related to consumption, it is inherently a extremely cruel industry, the conditions in dairy/ cattle/ chicken/pig farms are horrifyingly bad to the animals, and use breeds that have little genetic variety, create potential outbreak zones for many diseases.

8. Pigs and Cattle are very intelligent species, it is especially cruel to breed species of higher intelligence just for food even if there were only humane farms.

[1] http://www.fao.org/3/i3437e/i3437e.pdf

[2] https://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6392/987

[3] https://ourworldindata.org/environmental-impacts-of-food

[4] https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/10/12/1...

[5] https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/133/11/3907S/4818041

Re: Treating beef like coal would make a big dent in greenhouse-gas emissions

#138
post #79

As someone in the Gen X demographic who has never smoked, I've watched the anti-smoking campaigns and shift in attitudes towards smoking with interest - particularly how resistant smokers were to initially giving up smoking. I feel like eating meat is going to be my generations equivalent of smoking. Intellectually, I agree that eating meat is bad for the environment, cruel to animals (esp industrial farming) etc ...…

Did you notice what drove the change in attitudes towards smoking?

Re: Treating beef like coal would make a big dent in greenhouse-gas emissions

#139
post #85

> The simplest way to cut beef output is for people to eat other animals instead, or become vegetarians. That’s like, in 1900, saying “the simplest way to prevent road deaths is for everyone to drive slower.” That’s not simple at all - that’s an intractable group behavior problem. What you really need is for the government to come along and put up speed limits. Most people will push those rules, a few will flout them…

Do I need to pay carbon tax on my dog?

Unless your dog burns fossil fuels you most likely only need to pay carbon tax on the dog products you use that were made using fossil fuels. Dogs don't produce a lot of Methane either, because they're not ruminants.

Re: Treating beef like coal would make a big dent in greenhouse-gas emissions

#140

It feels like we are headed into a new medieval era of sumptuary laws and moral decrees promulgated by a decentralized international clerical-academic class. I don't think I like it very much

I'm pretty sure that a carbon tax was never considered in the Middle Ages.
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